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Dream Big: The New Route Into A 10X Salary Property Nightmare


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Not in London they haven't

Fair enough. Apart from anything else I meant generally, relative to house prices, possibly relative to rpi and on average over the past couple of decades or so - not just the last couple of years.

From the ONS web site

Private rental prices paid by tenants in Great Britain rose by 2.5% in the 12 months to June 2015

Private rental prices grew by 2.5% in England, 2.1% in Scotland and 0.8% in Wales in the 12 months to June 2015

Rental prices increased in all the English regions over the year to June 2015, with rental prices increasing the most in London (3.8%)

-----------------

Private rental prices paid by tenants in Great Britain rose by 2.4% in the 12 months to July 2016, unchanged compared with the year to June 2016.

Private rental prices grew by 2.6% in England, 0.2% in Scotland and were unchanged in Wales (0.0%) in the 12 months to July 2016.

Rental prices increased in all the English regions over the year to July 2016, with rental prices increasing the most in the South East (3.5%)

That's just the last 2 years - so even recently not exactly racing ahead even in London and over the past few decades I think on average they've been relatively flat certainly compared to house prices and on average compared to rpi. Even for London.

As it's mortgage related (the 5%) the medium long term is applicable.

Rpi is currently 1.8% but is forecast in some quarters to increase to about 3.3% over the next few years - predicting it is anybody's guess of course.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/374890/retail-price-index-rpi-forecast-united-kingdom-uk/

What's your information on the subject. Is an annual increase of 3% or rpi (whichever is the highest) a relative rental bargain over the medium and long term in London/the rest of the country?

Edited by billybong
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It's just a 5% shared equity isn't it?

Help to Buy Bail Banks has already dropped from an 80% to 60% share equity for Londoners.

So the only possible advantage is security of tenure over renting. Though each time someone signs to a shared equity scheme, they are shooting themselves in the foot, re their chances of buying a house outright, as it props prices up.

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What's your information on the subject. Is an annual increase of 3% or rpi (whichever is the highest) a relative rental bargain over the medium and long term in London/the rest of the country?

The thing that could make this a 'relative bargain' compared to renting is the value that the permanency of tenancy gives you over and above a normal rental contract.

But that value aside, I wouldn't say it's a relative bargain compared to normal renting.

In London have risen by over 3% per year for the past five years according to some measures, so on the surface it's fair value. But you'd have to be a particularly unlucky tenant to have your rent hiked every year unless you were moving house every year - loads of landlords will prioritise keeping good tenants over the risk of putting rents up.

In addition, I'm expecting rents to fall in London in future (they already are), so I think it would be a mistake to lock yourself into a minimum 3% annual increase.

I don't know enough about how rents are going outside London to be sure, but my guess is they'll rise as BTL spreads around the country as it looks as if it is doing.

The massive caveat is that if anyone was to consider buying a house this way they should have a really close look at what the deal is with buying equity and selling onwards. Say the value of the house goes down or up, does the amount you pay to buy equity go down or up or stay the same? And how easy is it going to be to sell on?

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The thing that could make this a 'relative bargain' compared to renting is the value that the permanency of tenancy gives you over and above a normal rental contract.

But that value aside, I wouldn't say it's a relative bargain compared to normal renting.

In London have risen by over 3% per year for the past five years according to some measures, so on the surface it's fair value. But you'd have to be a particularly unlucky tenant to have your rent hiked every year unless you were moving house every year - loads of landlords will prioritise keeping good tenants over the risk of putting rents up.

In addition, I'm expecting rents to fall in London in future (they already are), so I think it would be a mistake to lock yourself into a minimum 3% annual increase.

I don't know enough about how rents are going outside London to be sure, but my guess is they'll rise as BTL spreads around the country as it looks as if it is doing.

The massive caveat is that if anyone was to consider buying a house this way they should have a really close look at what the deal is with buying equity and selling onwards. Say the value of the house goes down or up, does the amount you pay to buy equity go down or up or stay the same? And how easy is it going to be to sell on?

Thanks for the response. I agree on the permanency aspect and the permanency can be an advantage on both sides (notional landlord and notional tenant) - especially for the tenant considering how temporary and insecure some rentals can be. In that respect it could be a good deal for both. On the other hand it can be a mobility drawback unless you can maybe sub-let. There's been a fair spread of BtL around the country even now but London's been at the forefront - I guess to some extent it will depend on the job market outside of London.

A lot of it will depend on the detailed conditions and how the costs of ownership are shared out.

Edited by billybong
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Tomorrow's Times has an article about a start-up (Unmortgage.com) that "helps" you buy a home worth ten times your salary.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dream-big-the-new-route-into-property-76x5mlt8g

Based on the salary of a prospective homeowner and the area in which he or she wants to live, Unmortgage.com will offer a budget for a new home of up to ten times your income.

You need to find 5 per cent of the value of a property you wish to buy and Unmortgage.com will pay the rest of the purchase price. This means that you own 5 per cent of the property and will need to pay a monthly sum to Unmortgage.com to live there. Your monthly payments can be increased to up your stake in the property

Your rent will increase year by year in line with the Retail Prices Index (RPI) or 3 per cent, whichever is greater.

As well as the 5 per cent deposit you will also pay 5 per cent of all other purchase costs, which include the survey, conveyancing and stamp duty.

An individual with a £50,000 income and a deposit of £25,000 would be eligible to find a property to purchase in Clapham, southwest London, of £450,000. The deposit required would be £22,500 and purchase costs would be £950.

​Seems more like a very expensive way of renting than a sensible way of purchasing a home to me.

For Unmortgage it looks like a pretty good deal, as even if the buyer continually overpays to build up their stake in the property, the 3% minimum annual increase in the rent means that the rent they charge is likely to carry on increasing year on year (for some reason the quoted example overlooks this).

Frog Boilers ?

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I suppose in the right circumstances it may make sense. I.e entry level professional with guaranteed wage rises earning say 30k and figure is likely to increase significantly over the next few years buying 300k house. Someone who may want to start a family in next few years may be better off purchasing the 300k house than buying 150k flat and moving after a few years. You would be to an extent protected from interest rate rises by renting in this manner rather that owning. If however they are letting cleaners on 15k a year buy 150k flats then that is another matter.

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I suppose in the right circumstances it may make sense. I.e entry level professional with guaranteed wage rises earning say 30k and figure is likely to increase significantly over the next few years buying 300k house. Someone who may want to start a family in next few years may be better off purchasing the 300k house than buying 150k flat and moving after a few years. You would be to an extent protected from interest rate rises by renting in this manner rather that owning. If however they are letting cleaners on 15k a year buy 150k flats then that is another matter.

Very few - None? - have guaranteed wage increases.

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The thing that could make this a 'relative bargain' compared to renting is the value that the permanency of tenancy gives you over and above a normal rental contract.

The massive caveat is that if anyone was to consider buying a house this way they should have a really close look at what the deal is with buying equity and selling onwards. Say the value of the house goes down or up, does the amount you pay to buy equity go down or up or stay the same? And how easy is it going to be to sell on?

What if the 95% shareholder wants to sell?

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Wow!

So hi, my name is Ray. I started the Unmortgage to help people escape the rent trap.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you all - your thoughts and comments are incredibly insightful.

I'll attempt to address some of the points made here without being defensive. All your comments are valid - and the harshness of some of them is genuinely appreciated for the clarity and honesty of thought - but many are based on the assumption the Unmortgage is lending. Let's be clear: this is not a loan or finance.

Here we go:

Bomberbrown - If the occupier wants to move, they give us 3 months notice and we buy their stake at fair market price (typically anticipated to be 5-20%). No exit fees.

Canbuywontbuy - Investors - pension funds and other long-term investors - agree to an 8 year lock-in. If they want to sell after that, it's the same as any other commercial investment: they find a buyer for their holdings. The very last thing an institutional investor will want is to turf someone out of their home. In fact, they participate in the Unmortgage to help people onto the housing ladder - they want to be seen to be doing good. There's no landlord. It's your home. We come in pro-rata on anything above general wear and tear maintenance. And no, we don't tack on any fees for helping. This product exists to help people. If you can magic up more affordable house prices, we'll all weep with joy. Until then, people need help and we'd like to think we're part of the solution.

TheCountOfNowhere - Unmortgage does not lend. So the Northern Rock reference, with respect, isn't appreciated.

Spyguy - You're right, no-one has guaranteed wage increases (outside of publicly listed company executive pay). But what is important to note is young professionals have the highest likelihood of income increases.

FLASH_2007 - spot on! Getting people into the home they aspire to live in long term, rather than just the first or second (often sub-optimal) step on the ladder. Casting aspersions on the prospects of cleaners probably unfair, but also you're right in that it's unlikely we'll be able to help people on very low incomes. That's what government assistance and 'subsidised rent' schemes are for.

Billybong - really appreciate your fair-handed curiousity about the details. We come in pro-rata with costs for everything except wear and tear maintenance up to a boiler breaking. And of course over the medium to long term rents have raced ahead of inflation, so Unmortgage rents should lag market rent. Happy to have a more in-depth chat. I'm on [email protected]

Patient London FTB - We've designed the annual rent increase to be fair on both sides. The pension funds get their inflation link - and occupiers over the long term should have rent that lags the market (which they of course pay pro-rata). Rents in London have very rarely ever fallen. Through a recession or a boom, rent rises are resilient. Hence the current plight of renters being forced out because they can't afford punitive rent rises. The intention here is predictability and fairness of future costs. With buying more equity, they have the ability to do that anytime. Selling is simply three months notice and we'll buy their stake at market price to sell on to the next long term occupier - hopefully in one go rather than two transactions. Because we're buying desirable homes in high demand areas, it should be fairly safe to assume there will be others wanting to own that home.

MARTINX9 - We spoke to Notting Hill Housing who said they'd like to do so much more around shared ownership. Unfortunately the structure is just so complex. Very few occupiers can find a buyer for their shared ownership home and the agreement often needs to be wound down. Plus: choice. How many aspire to live in the available, often cheaper new build stock that is offered for shared ownership? I don't aspire to live in a box - paying hefty service charges. And the evidence I have shows the same goes for very many others. So no, this isn't shared ownership.

Democorruptcy - first off, love the online handle. Security of tenure is key here. But also security of 'this is my home and there's no landlord involved'. On the 'props prices up' point: we buy in cash, and therefore only ever buy at a discount. And it's important to say: we're buying to help someone onto the property ladder - it's for them to accumulate equity in the home.

Kibuc - yes, fundamentally and totally different from shared ownership: choose your home from the open sales market, no punitive service charges and none of the complexity of mixing rent and mortgages. This is part own, part rent, no loan.

Renting til I die - There was a farmer who had a dog and bingo was his name-o. Sorry, I have young kids and couldn't help myself. That song is endlessly in my head. I blame YouTube. Anyhow...If you buy 5% of a home with an Unmortgage, you'll absolutely and unequivocally be financially better off than renting: reduced monthly costs (max 95% of rent) and you get 'house price inflation' on your savings by taking them from the bank and placing them into your (desirable) home.

Spyguy - payment goes down as they own more of the home... Which makes this not quack...Also, yes it would be halal (no debt or interest) - but has no resemblence to the 'Islamic finance' currently on offer because those are based on both debt and interest - just 'packaged' to pretend they're not. Unmortgage is absolutely transparent and based on part owning, part renting, no lending.

AvoidDebt - Not a loan - so yes, we're avoiding debt.

Knock out johnny - we weren't expecting that press coverage, so apologies for the website not working as it should have - we've enacted some quick fixes and will be building something proper for launch in December. On the new builds, we ask people to look for homes 'without a high service charge'. So that rules out most new builds and ex-councils. We do like resident association managed mansion blocks and quality ex-councils - as they tend to have reasonable service charges, are in high demand and therefore not at all risky. And of course our bread and butter are desirable period homes and conversions.

Eek - if you can get a mortgage, it's absolutely the right thing to do. For those who are stuck saving as property prices march on, we get them on the ladder sooner so they stand a better chance of getting a mortgage sooner - and of course escaping 'landlord problems'. Gentoo's Genie Home Purchase Plan failed because investors likely found it complex to 'subsidise' homeownership. Nope, Unmortgage is not an Islamic mortgage type scheme. Nor is it packaged differently as the underlying funds are not loaned. It's pure equity.

Moneyfornothing - this isn't a leveraged product on either the occupier or investor side. It's pure equity, and therefore removes all the bubbly risks that debt fuels.

funinhounslow - yes, if anything big needs fixing - boiler breaking and above - we come in pro-rata to contribute. And it is rent. We're not hiding that the Unmortgage is based on the simplicity of rent.

Hotairmail - Think of this as the anti-buy-to-let - we save people from landlords and 'landlord problems' and get them into homeownership far sooner than any other way possible.

Btd1981 - yes, three percent a year compounded. Easier to throw a party in your own home. Which is what the Unmortgage helps people buy. No landlord, no fuss.

Darwin - Islamic mortgages, if they were done right, would look like the Unmortgage. But the ones you get today look like an actual mortgage. So no, this isn't like Islamic mortgages. Sorry.

Fully Detached - imagine your pride at being able to paint the walls whatever colour you fancy. Imagine having your savings in your home rather than the bank, or worse the casino - sorry, I meant stock market. Unmortgage helps renters become homeowners, sooner. Surely that's a big step in the right direction?

Si1 - Not lending, so like any other cash property purchases.

Confusion of VIs - thank you so very much for sharing on House Price Crash - all of the comments you've triggered have been great reading.

I just want to end saying: Unmortgage is cheaper than renting, because you're paying rent only on the portion you don't own. i.e. Your maximum rent is 95% of market rate, and it goes down as you buy more.

Thanks again. If you want to get in touch, I'm on [email protected]

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  • 4 weeks later...

I am one of the unfortunates to be stuck in a genie home via the home purchase plan. Been in the property for two and a half years and have accrued around 4% shares, wanted to exit the scheme and buy another property through the traditional mortgage route so had to give Gentoo first refusal on our shares which they promptly declined. Next we had the property valued and it has decreased by 10k, genie then told us that the settlement figure is 5k higher than the market value, add the value of our shares ( another 5k) and voila..genie do not lose a penny on the depreciation in market value, we've spent around 18k in "rent" and have put the house on the open market 5k higher than the agent suggested ( but still 5k lower than the other same style genie home for sale opposite) to add insult 2 local new build developments have said px would not be a problem but the developer we want to buy from wont px because of the genie shared ownership! 

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Got to be careful with smiling sneaky Genies (generally) imo.... if you choose to go in search of their lamp.

Consult your book of wishes very very carefully, to establish what you want from the happy wish deal.  Nowt for nowt.

Although think of what you've saved by alternatives - eg full rent over the 2.5 years for the area, ..... may not be so bad, and it's a market full of market participants making their own wishes come true (or holding off from doing so on risk/reward balance).

 

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5 hours ago, Venger said:

Got to be careful with smiling sneaky Genies (generally) imo.... if you choose to go in search of their lamp.

Consult your book of wishes very very carefully, to establish what you want from the happy wish deal.  Nowt for nowt.

Although think of what you've saved by alternatives - eg full rent over the 2.5 years for the area, ..... may not be so bad, and it's a market full of market participants making their own wishes come true (or holding off from doing so on risk/reward balance).

 

Venger, I think you are showing your lack of knowledge here. The scheme (from memory) was always more expensive than the rent Gentoo charged their tenants - basically as I suspected when I looked at the scheme (when they were trying to get me to write the management software) it was a con to make profit off unsuspecting house buyers who couldn't afford the other options). 

Toffee73 I'm off to do some research for you - will be back with a proper comment later this week.

 

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It's true I know nothing about Gentoo Genie.  Never heard of it.

My message was more of one about trusting genies / looking for the easy.... against these prices in so many areas.

Also I don't automatically award innocence... eg: must have been tricked into it for no other options'  - against bubble house prices.  Eg house prices £200K+ house prices are never 'innocence' vs incomes.  We all see the world differently and some expect forever HPI and make their market decisions.... including Ed.M Finance Journo Guy....  shacked up with his pal last year in a joint-purchase (seems to have been the peak to me), with his view of forever-BTL, no changes on tax for the BTLers ('market too big to fail/fall') and no HPC ever.

Run the numbers of the rent side the guy has paid over 2.5 years. 

He says:   Been in the property for two and a half years and have accrued around 4% shares,..... we've spent around 18k in "rent"

£18K rent (and whatever the capital/deposit was, assuming there was one). 

There seems to have been options there available to him/her/them (continuing to rent and await HPC for instance), rather than shared-ownership that he's now not so happy with, having chosen to make own decisions.  Not just your automatic, "unsuspecting house buyers who couldn't afford the other options "

It's a market full of 10s of millions of people, and I'm sick of carry all the 'innocents' and looking for bailouts for them, against raging HPI.

And I surely don't need to make comment on this, for hpcers can read my mind about it.  Everyone with their own market outlook, and have to make our own freewill market decisions as adults, in competition with millions of other market participants.  I stay HPC, rent (which also costs my side 'dead money / innocence' but no one ever raised the victim flag for me) - and wait for much better buying value.

On 9/22/2016 at 11:19 PM, Raytgage said:

Canbuywontbuy - ........This product exists to help people. If you can magic up more affordable house prices, we'll all weep with joy. Until then, people need help and we'd like to think we're part of the solution.

Patient London FTB - We've designed the annual rent increase to be fair on both sides. The pension funds get their inflation link - and occupiers over the long term should have rent that lags the market (which they of course pay pro-rata). Rents in London have very rarely ever fallen. Through a recession or a boom, rent rises are resilient.

Renting til I die - There was a farmer who had a dog and bingo was his name-o. Sorry, I have young kids and couldn't help myself. That song is endlessly in my head. I blame YouTube. Anyhow...If you buy 5% of a home with an Unmortgage, you'll absolutely and unequivocally be financially better off than renting: reduced monthly costs (max 95% of rent) and you get 'house price inflation' on your savings by taking them from the bank and placing them into your (desirable) home.

Eek - if you can get a mortgage, it's absolutely the right thing to do. For those who are stuck saving as property prices march on, we get them on the ladder sooner so they stand a better chance of getting a mortgage sooner - and of course escaping 'landlord problems'. Gentoo's Genie Home Purchase Plan failed because investors likely found it complex to 'subsidise' homeownership. Nope, Unmortgage is not an Islamic mortgage type scheme. Nor is it packaged differently as the underlying funds are not loaned. It's pure equity.

...Hotairmail - Think of this as the anti-buy-to-let - we save people from landlords and 'landlord problems' and get them into homeownership far sooner than any other way possible.

Btd1981 - yes, three percent a year compounded. Easier to throw a party in your own home. Which is what the Unmortgage helps people buy. No landlord, no fuss.

Fully Detached - imagine your pride at being able to paint the walls whatever colour you fancy. Imagine having your savings in your home rather than the bank, or worse the casino - sorry, I meant stock market. Unmortgage helps renters become homeowners, sooner. Surely that's a big step in the right direction?

I just want to end saying: Unmortgage is cheaper than renting, because you're paying rent only on the portion you don't own. i.e. Your maximum rent is 95% of market rate, and it goes down as you buy more.

 

Edited by Venger
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eek

Quote

*it was a con to make profit off unsuspecting house buyers who couldn't afford the other options*

And Eek, after 'no option' but shared-ownership, with the guy having paid £18K in rent element over 30 months (do owners on hpc realise renter-saver hpcers pay big big rent too, including against many years of raging HPI? - I guess it's ok for us to crawl under our rented rocks, as some property VI say).... he wants to sell in order to buy a new place, in this market.  

Despite it all, he's trying to sell his own property, and been actively looking to buy again (after selling) or px his property (currently for sale) in order to buy a local newbuild property from a developer.  

If he could sell or /px (and sounds like has some financial position either in property or for newbuild he would like to buy)... where are you ever going to draw the line on one of millions of buying/owning market participants, and their financial buying choices and decisions?  Should you be there to site visit and approve price wants to pay for next property, in order to ensure he's not an innocent in your eyes?

Market imo.. and my view that many bought for they believe no hpc risk, and embraced HPI ride to gain 'equity' - whereas others in the market position for hpc, rent (£££/££££ pcm) and to buy at better value.  No way of knowing (see the rent we've paid LL over so many years) - so it's a market.

20 hours ago, Toffee73 said:

I am one of the unfortunates to be stuck in a genie home via the home purchase plan. Been in the property for two and a half years and have accrued around 4% shares, wanted to exit the scheme and buy another property through the traditional mortgage route so had to give Gentoo first refusal on our shares which they promptly declined. Next we had the property valued and it has decreased by 10k, genie then told us that the settlement figure is 5k higher than the market value, add the value of our shares ( another 5k) and voila..genie do not lose a penny on the depreciation in market value, we've spent around 18k in "rent" and have put the house on the open market 5k higher than the agent suggested ( but still 5k lower than the other same style genie home for sale opposite) to add insult 2 local new build developments have said px would not be a problem but the developer we want to buy from wont px because of the genie shared ownership! 

 

Edited by Venger
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12 hours ago, eek said:

Venger, I think you are showing your lack of knowledge here. The scheme (from memory) was always more expensive than the rent Gentoo charged their tenants - basically as I suspected when I looked at the scheme (when they were trying to get me to write the management software) it was a con to make profit off unsuspecting house buyers who couldn't afford the other options). 

Toffee73 I'm off to do some research for you - will be back with a proper comment later this week.

 

Also eek.... some businesses are there to make as much profit as the customer will withstand.  (A GP told me that about automotive industry sector and servicing/repairs.)  

And many those customers been pushing and falling over themselves to buy at high prices, because they think it is good for them.  It has been for many.  Prices zoomed up again. 

 Even when unhappy with circumstances 2.5 years down the line, want to sell and buy from next developer of newbuilds.

Why do you run the BTL numbers for the market ahead?  With a view of buying for self gain and to look for potential profit yes?  Not for charity.  You may be an outright owners with a pot of money to buy an investment property, but I don't see you as 'doing good' in probably outbidding someone for it, if we ever get HPC.

 

On 10/5/2016 at 3:38 PM, eek said:

 

To be honest I don't think I have that much of a different mind - I still believe that BTL is a perfectly acceptable business. Its not however a leveraged investment, its a business that needs to be properly managed - we couldn't manage it down south and the agents we employed to do so were useless so we closed the business down. Thankfully HMRC is closing down the leverage investment bit albeit still not enough and not quickly enough.

 

On 10/5/2016 at 3:48 PM, Venger said:

Grr, I try to show I can do some positivity, tone down with my cynical streak, and it comes back to bite on me.

Anyway I'm here with hopes of seeing market tilt widespread homeownership - rather than an owner who is eyeing the market to look for a cheap BTL, like all the BTLer double-downers did 2008 onwards, whilst many here were worrying about 'owners who didn't know what they were doing / just wanted a home / innocence'.  

Policy is changing with SDLT surcharge, Section 24, and ever more regulation that BTLers have to keep on top of.   You keep on running the BTL numbers.

 

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13 minutes ago, Venger said:

Also eek.... some businesses are there to make as much profit as the customer will withstand.  (A GP told me that about automotive industry sector and servicing/repairs.)  

Gentoo is a housing association and was formerly Sunderland Council's Housing Department - its not supposed to be make a profit...

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7 minutes ago, eek said:

Gentoo is a housing association and was formerly Sunderland Council's Housing Department - its not supposed to be make a profit...

Ive socialised with some of the North's finest HAs executives.

Trust me, if a HA is not quite yet a not for profit, it soon will be.

HAs are about turning ex council house assets into pay and pension for the HA empliyees.

 

 

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And the rest.....   this guy who wants to buy again?

Picture from you of going with this shared-ownership because 'couldn't afford other options' having spent £18K in rent over 30 months. 

Trying to sell in order to buy again.  Seemingly won't px with 2 developers because property he wants (to buy next) is with a 3rd developer.

Market.

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9 minutes ago, Venger said:

And the rest.....   this guy who wants to buy again?

Picture from you of going with this shared-ownership because 'couldn't afford other options' having spent £18K in rent over 30 months. 

Trying to sell in order to buy again.  Seemingly won't px with 2 developers because property he wants (to buy next) is with a 3rd developer.

Market.

I'm not discussing the motives of someone else on here - but I can understand what he was trying to do - it's a shame that you can't take a couple of steps back to try and see why he is doing it....

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