Is Retirement Over?

[CunningPlan]

Thanks for sharing. To compare:

- our total spending for 2015 was £24k and that included renting in the South East.

- I don't even have a smart phone.

Of course we're all different and it's what makes the world an interesting place.

Correct. The South East is a large area though. To remain in an area where my kids can still go to the same school, the absolute cheapest property I can find would be £17k pa just rent and rates. As has been discussed on another thread, kids do muck up your budget.

I do have a smart phone - an old iphone 3 on giff gaff. Only need it so that the kids can keep in contact with their taxi!

[wish I could afford one]

...the absolute cheapest property I can find would be £17k pa just rent and rates. ...

We're not that far apart. 2015 rent and council tax was £15.3k for us. Once I buy a place our day to day basic running costs will fall dramatically.

[CunningPlan]

We're not that far apart. 2015 rent and council tax was £15.3k for us. Once I buy a place our day to day basic running costs will fall dramatically.

In that case, if you do have kids (and of course I respect your decision not to say) then I have to take my hat off to you and them!

[winkie]

We're not that far apart. 2015 rent and council tax was £15.3k for us. Once I buy a place our day to day basic running costs will fall dramatically.

So would you say £10k is doable?....£10K x 2 = £20k or £10k x 3 = £30k....

BTW...I also do not use a smart phone, can't see what's so smart about it.

Edited August 30, 2016 by winkie

[justthisbloke]

I admire your plan and sticking to your targets. The only downside - and this is a huge one - is nature doesn't agree with your plan and sends you on your way early. With you sitting there thinking why the ****** didn't I just spend all the money when I had the chance.

Without hindsight its impossible to know. However I know of a few people who have followed this plan and had it ripped from them with a couple of months notice. Planned for 30 years - got 3 months.

No 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this IMO.

I'm eight months into my post-work FIRE life. If I snuff it tomorrow, every day of those eight months of total freedom and independence more than compensates for tat foregone. Equally, I'll go knowing that my wife and children will be financially OK.

People sometimes see the FIRE road as an exercise in delayed gratification but it never felt that way to me. It's very gratifying to have money in the bank.

[wish I could afford one]

So would you say £10k is doable?....£10K x 2 = £20k or £10k x 3 = £30k....

If I remove rent (of course owning would bring some added home running costs and in my FIRE models I assume 1% of home purchase cost) and work costs in 2015 spend was £7,400 for everything else.

In FIRE I want to make sure we have plenty of options and I am budgeting about EUR23k which will enable us to live like kings if we so choose.

[wish I could afford one]

...

People sometimes see the FIRE road as an exercise in delayed gratification but it never felt that way to me. It's very gratifying to have money in the bank.

I agree 100% with that. My journey has resulted in a path that is both healthy and happy.

[ccc]

I spend too much to even think about doing this sort of thing.

I spent about £30k on myself alone last year. And i don't really but many high value things. Car is a T reg.

It's all on fun. And i do a lot of free things as well but some things do cost a lot.

I earn in the top 5% of the country and even if I lived like a miser I couldn't save even close to a million in a decade !!

I save about £15-20k per year having a blast. I also took a year off few years back just because I felt like it.

I'm fairly content but know I shan't be retiring in my 40's.

[winkie]

I agree 100% with that. My journey has resulted in a path that is both healthy and happy.

[wish I could afford one]

...

I earn in the top 5% of the country and even if I lived like a miser I couldn't save even close to a million in a decade !!

...

Why not, have you run the sums? You might be surprised. Remember it's saving and investing that does it not just saving.

[wish I could afford one]

Yep, well aware of Maslow's Hierachy of Needs. It's a shame that many never really make it past Safety and Security.

[JoeDavola]

I earn in the top 5% of the country and even if I lived like a miser I couldn't save even close to a million in a decade !!

What line of work are you in ccc?

[ccc]

Why not, have you run the sums? You might be surprised. Remember it's saving and investing that does it not just saving.

Indeed - but investments can go up and down.

[ccc]

What line of work are you in ccc?

Extremely flaky but very well paid contract project management / support type stuff.

About to have an extended period out of work I think !

Due to a huge number of folk in the Edinburgh market coming on at exactly the same time.

Such is the nature of it though.

Edited August 30, 2016 by ccc

[Frugal Git]

I spend too much to even think about doing this sort of thing.

I spent about £30k on myself alone last year. And i don't really but many high value things. Car is a T reg.

It's all on fun. And i do a lot of free things as well but some things do cost a lot.

I earn in the top 5% of the country and even if I lived like a miser I couldn't save even close to a million in a decade !!

I save about £15-20k per year having a blast. I also took a year off few years back just because I felt like it.

I'm fairly content but know I shan't be retiring in my 40's.

No judgement here - just interested. 30k in a year is what, ~£80 per day? Surely some of that must be somewhat reclaimable.. ie in 'stuff'. If not I am genuinely impressed and intrigued as that seems almost impossible to me. I travel led round the world for a year, denying myself nothing for 12k.

I'm not adverse to spending quite a lot - cameras, motorbikes....but they tend to last a while... 80 quid per day on fun consistently whilst having a job seems quite a lot!

(Edit- even if it was say 2.5k on one thing every month....I still want to know just what is that expensive - I must be missing out!)

Edited August 30, 2016 by Frugal Git

[JoeDavola]

Extremely flaky but very well paid contract project management / support type stuff.

About to have an extended period out of work I think !

Due to a huge number of folk in the Edinburgh market coming on at exactly the same time.

Such is the nature of it though.

Still, make a ton and then take some time of to enjoy yourself if the job market cools. Sounds like a good life.

All these discussions remind me of someone I met in San Diego who was a contract programmer. Now the caveat is that his Dad had bought him a house, so had no mortgage, but his hobby was kayaking - so he'd work for say a year and a half on a big contract, and then literally take a couple of years off to do what he wanted. Dude looked a good 10 years younger than he was - I think in part because he'd gotten his priorities right!

Edited August 30, 2016 by JoeDavola

[Automotive Engineer]

What I want to know is, what will the future look 20-30 years from now?

I reckon that if House Prices don't Crash due to government intervention (which seems to be the case givn the evidence we've seen), house prices kill the British economy.

To elaborate, what I see happening is that due to growing costs for buying and renting, the model of going to uni, getting a job, getting a morgage and then getting a house will be dead in the water. Already, career "jobs" whcihc traditionally put you in the upper middle class and middle middle class, don't pay enough for livign in London or the Home counties. So it follows that the jobs in London are not worth it as rents will leave you with nothing.

So what's the point of it all?

If the job can barely cover rent, why work in London? You can stay at your parents and get a job locally.

If local jobs don't require a degree why go to uni?

I see the above example competely breaking the British manufacturing industry, the media industry, IT and banking etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/aug/30/university-tuition-fees-are-they-worth-it-students

hen university tuition costs nearly trebled from £3,375 a year to £9,000 in 2012, students were promised value for money, more choice and higher lifetime earnings than non-graduates. But the first students to pay the new fees, many of whom graduated last summer, are not having it easy.

According to the National Union of Students, nearly half of those who graduated in 2015 are back living with their parents. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned that the “graduate premium” – the difference between graduate and non-graduate earnings – is likely to shrink as more people get degrees

...[and]...

“University was expensive,” she says. “I got a letter when I started paying it back in April and it said I owed £50,000. It was about £10k more than I expected – I didn’t know that the interest had been mounting up from the first term.”

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/why-london-s-top-creative-firms-are-being-urged-to-join-huge-exodus-to-bristol-at-major-conference/story-29628012-detail/story.html

Scores of leading technology, PR and creative businesses in London will be urged to up sticks and move to Bristol at a major conference in the capital next month.

They will be told to relocate their 'digital, marketing, pr, creative, TV, video, animation, games, tech, ecommerce or UX' businesses out of expensive London and move instead to Bristol.

The city's own industry champion Bristol Media has secured the only spot at a major Social Media Week conference – one of four being held across the world in September in London, Miami, Sao Paolo and Mumbai – to urge a host of the capital's leading creative and media technology companies to head down the M4.

[it won't happen but anyway...]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35726513

The success of London schools is at risk as high rents increasingly price young teachers out of London, says the National Union of Teachers.

[yeah and also evryone else...]

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/beer-under-threat-londons-housing-11471136

London's last remaining family brewer is struggling to recruit and retain staff due to the "housing crisis", a Hounslow MP has claimed.

Ruth Cadbury said soaring house prices and rents were making it harder for Fuller's brewery in Chiswick to attract and keep the best employees.

"In my constituency, Fuller's brewery is a thriving business with an international reputation, but speaking to the directors there it's evident that the housing crisis is affecting their business and their ability to recruit and retain staff," the Brentford and Isleworth MP told fellow MPs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/11850805/Jobs-crisis-looming-as-entry-level-workers-driven-out-of-London-by-soaring-rents.html

London's housing shortage is driving graduates and low-paid workers to move further from the capital, prompting fears of an imminent jobs crisis as businesses struggle to recruit entry-level labour.

According to the CBI's new poll of London-based businesses, some 57pc of bosses said that the high cost and low availability of housing was affecting their ability to recruit staff for lower-wage jobs.

Almost a third said that employees were having to leave their jobs because costs are too high.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/soaring-cost-of-renting-means-a-third-of-people-want-to-leave-london-a3096551.html

and

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-london-banking-idUKKCN0V41GU

London rents too high even for young bankers

[holly shit]

[ccc]

No judgement here - just interested. 30k in a year is what, ~£80 per day? Surely some of that must be somewhat reclaimable.. ie in 'stuff'. If not I am genuinely impressed and intrigued as that seems almost impossible to me. I travel led round the world for a year, denying myself nothing for 12k.

I'm not adverse to spending quite a lot - cameras, motorbikes....but they tend to last a while... 80 quid per day on fun consistently whilst having a job seems quite a lot!

(Edit- even if it was say 2.5k on one thing every month....I still want to know just what is that expensive - I must be missing out!)

I have travelled on a budget for years before. At present I earn a lot so spend more as a result. I don't have to. But now I can stay in a nice hotel in Thailand for £30 a night - rather than spend £3 for a dorm. It all adds up.

I go on a lot of holidays. This year will be 3 weeks in Thailand, week in kitzbuhel, weekend in Stuttgart, wee trip to Finland and Estonia, week in spain, looking like 2 months in Malaysia and Thailand then a few weeks in Antigua for the cricket in February.

I suppose you could say I live a sort of 'semi' retirement with a lot more time spent not working than the average person does ?

And when I go out for a weekend bevvy session over two days usually few hundred quid. Lots of beer, shots, the odd dipper and other certain things that can make for a good evening

[SillyBilly]

Just got to wait until some government or think tank boffin tells us this trend is because our attitudes to work are changing or something daft. That we actually want to work longer as we look to retain "busier, more fulfilled" lives. Or we want a zero hours contract job to provide a nice top up off our pension incomes...Why on earth would anyone of us want to retire in our mid to late 50's like some boomers and have to go on cruises and spend all weekend polishing camper vans? All the while we could be keeping our minds active, skills uo-to-date and ourselves physically fit by continuing to work?

Just watching that BBC series on minimum wage jobs is enough motivation for any sane person to up their game to try and retire early IMO. Even in basic jobs now you are treated like a robot, your contribution monitored by the second. Who the hell enjoys that? I don't fancy competing with the third worlders in that race-to-the-bottom...and we could all find ourselves there. I am on an early retirement path for anywhere from about aged 50-55. It is not an extreme path but the balance works for me.

Edited August 30, 2016 by SillyBilly

[Greater Fool]

One pf the problems is that folks look at something like a car assembly robot and scoff that is could never replace them because they a are so much cleaver, can interact with people, are creatve, have sales skills etc. etc. etc. The "robots" of the future will be more like HAL from 2001, call centres full of people will be replaced by a box of tricks in a server room. There wont be any jobs for "old" people and fewer jobs for the young and middle aged.

[SillyBilly]

One pf the problems is that folks look at something like a car assembly robot and scoff that is could never replace them because they a are so much cleaver, can interact with people, are creatve, have sales skills etc. etc. etc. The "robots" of the future will be more like HAL from 2001, call centres full of people will be replaced by a box of tricks in a server room. There wont be any jobs for "old" people and fewer jobs for the young and middle aged.

Quite happy for a robot to do my job. The only bit I am worried about is the lack of a pay cheque.

[Greater Fool]

Quite happy for a robot to do my job. The only bit I am worried about is the lack of a pay cheque.

I despair when I read about people being convinced that some kind of "Citizens Income" will provide theme with a living. I suggest visiting a 3rd world country such as India where there is no welfare state to see what poor people have to do to earn a few pennies to survive.

[ccc]

I despair when I read about people being convinced that some kind of "Citizens Income" will provide theme with a living. I suggest visiting a 3rd world country such as India where there is no welfare state to see what poor people have to do to earn a few pennies to survive.

I don't think you get what a citizens income is.

[Pop321]

I admire your plan and sticking to your targets. The only downside - and this is a huge one - is nature doesn't agree with your plan and sends you on your way early. With you sitting there thinking why the ****** didn't I just spend all the money when I had the chance.

Without hindsight its impossible to know. However I know of a few people who have followed this plan and had it ripped from them with a couple of months notice. Planned for 30 years - got 3 months.

No 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this IMO.

Good thread with some interesting perspectives to share with each other.

I know the point above has developed since made but it is important. This is one people said to me as I lived fairly frugally. But I never went without.....I just recognised that many of the things I thought I should want (because media and everyone takes wanted them).....I actually did not want or need.

So 'if' I died early I know I would still be happy with my choices and knew if I didn't save....my life would just be a worry and felt like a 45 year employment prison sentence.

I have 20 months to go before I 'retire' at 50...I could go now but 50 always felt right for me.

So my journey took 20 years, a tad longer than it needed to, but I compromised eg it included 7 Florida family holiday (budget providers @ £25k total) and lots of local holidays and cheap flight deals for me and the missus now the kids have move out with their own little families.

Children definitely impacted upon me financially and I would do anything for them.....but I could never financially spoil them. The area I live is semi affluent and I see so many children learning to spend....set up by their parents to want 'quality' things but never appreciating ultimately what I felt was important. Many now have done well and drive nice cars in their mid 20's (lease I assume). But they are unhappy with long hours and never having enough. Some interestingly now live frugally themselves and telling parents they don't want money for something like a car...just the money for savings (I have learned how varied and wide thinking other people are...even young adults). I like it when a child baffles their parents....particularly when the child (young adult) has my mindset.

My brother spends all his money....but he is never unhappy, never moans about money. He likes his stuff, his technology and he ultimately know the price of that. His money...his choice.

However, if he moaned at my position I would then be less happy with his choices. But he doesn't, we are different and we are happy with that. A little light humour at my frugality is as far as it goes....would expect that from any sibling.

So saving hard does work. You do need a half decent income so understand that's not possible for everyone - for me it was about understanding what I did not want (eg who needs a £2k sofa and a £2k carpet?) but also understanding what I did want.

But absolutely no judgement in those that take another route. I marvel at some people who spend and don't worry.

So for me money bought the one thing I was told it never could......time. And I endured saving was an enjoyable journey rather than a waste of time and just going without.

[Greater Fool]

I don't think you get what a citizens income is.

I kind of get the gist, from what I can see the current state pension is a kind of "Citizens Income" for people who are "too old to work". I can't get my head around the fact that we (as a country) are now saying that current pension is "unaffordable" and the retirement age needs to be continually raised. Yet people suggest that a CI for every adult could be affordable "if only" XYZ set of political and economic conditions could be achieved. Well surely making the state pension "affordable" would be a start, but there doesn't seem to any path to doing so other than deferring entitlement?