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Poles , Latvians, whatever. As long as they work and contribute. However, lets examine what they can contribute on minimum wage. What tax do you pay on £5.00 an hour ??

A mate of mine has a building refurb business here in the South East. Only employs top tradesmen and pays to £ for a top job. His business only works if he's producing quality work.

An example. He pays a decorator £130.00 a day on day rate .

Recently he has been under quoted by the competion so often that he's feeling pain. Why is this happening?

Some of the competition are using Eastern European labour paying ??? Not £120.00 a day I expect nor £100. More like £50 or £60. He cant compete.

The practise used is that the competion will even put semi-slilled painters in and tosh the job out, and then put a couple of good guys in at the end to tidy the work up.

Of course once bitten like this most customers will revert to a quality supplier. In the mean time my mates struggling. Any more out there?

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plenty of the wet trades such as painting and platering are being undrcut. if you go on a site its full of forigners.the quality of work is definately worse. they are tryingto do electrcians and plumbers jobs as well. this will spread to professional level as well. i just hope every one remembers who let them all in.

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Leefam83, As a plasterer myself I was discussing with a decorator once the skill levels of decorating. His response, "if you can pi*s you can paint". That's probably true for the bulk of the work, its just the finishing that counts and cutting in the edges.

If your mate's up against firms that employ cheap labour for unskilled work then that's just efficient business practice, like it or lump it. Of course I don't want to see the man suffer, and I don't want a whole heap of good polish plasterers turning up either. But come they will.

There is nothing inherent about shoving a roller up and down a wall that means you should get more than subsistence wages here or anywhere else in the world. We are global and as soon as the lazy dross that is the British workforce realise this the better.

On the world stage as a plasterer I'm probably worth no more than a cuople of dollars a day. I'm just lucky at the moment I'm in the right place to earn multiples of that. My income will drop as the UK continues its slide.

What bright and cheery thoughts this time on a Saturday morning. Right, I'm off to work now.

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Last week there was an interesting feature on South Today about the Polish population living in Southampton. It seems that Southampton has always been popular with them but since Poland joined the EU 10% of the population are now Polish!! That works out at 20,000 people!

In respect to Britains position I feel it needs to reposition itself fast to keep up with other countries especially unionised France!!

We have embraced capitialist values and our service sector is driving globalisation. If we are not careful Britain will be the very poor old man of Europe.

High house prices stiffle investment and individuals setting up businesses. We are all too worried about losing our jobs to take risks. Our high cost of living driven by increases in country and personal debt has come at a price and now it is payback time. Coupled with the fact that many are grounded in one area and will not be able to move so easily.

Problem is I feel that a long period of deflation is more likely to happen here. We need a short sharp shock to bring about a rapid adjustment otherwise it's game over for many years at least!!

Edited by Shamus
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Catch - ok, I think you got me wrong.

I was expecting (yet another) rant against immigrants.

If I wasnt clear - I apologise.

And no, I dont have any issues with you or anyone on the board.

So lets wipe the slate clean and start again.

No it was you who got me wrong, your second sentance supports that observation . :D I'm Ok with you Needle so there is no sweat mate. I knew you had read me wrong, but I also know you can be a bit feisty when it comes to racist issues. And as I did not want to be subjected to freindly fire, I thought it was better I a placed a shot across your bows ;)

I agree the Polish workers are hard workers, and it is understandable that they will come here where work is plentyfull when compared with conditions back home.

The jist of the program was about the demands on the social infrostructure, housing, schooling, jobs and how it was viewed by some sections of the indiginous population. And as such is relevent to the area of discussion debated on this website.

As an aside, how can we compete in world markets when you have got to factor into your component price the sky high house prices our workers have to struggle with.

Interesting times ahead methinks.

Edited by Catch22
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I have a feeling this will be a very temporary phenomenon. In the 80s the human traffic was going in the other direction, with lots of British builders going out to work in Germany. But how many of them stayed? Very few. And the immigration from Spain after it joined the EU proved to be fairly temporary (although not the Portuguese, if you have ever been to Jersey you will know what I'm talking about).

I would say over half my friends in London are immigrants, and very few of them are planning to stay for good. The only ones that are is because they have married a brit. Once you've got together some savings in our overvalued currency, your quality of life in Poland or Colombia will be far higher than in the UK.

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Poles , Latvians, whatever. As long as they work and contribute. However, lets examine what they can contribute on minimum wage. What tax do you pay on £5.00 an hour ??

A mate of mine has a building refurb business here in the South East. Only employs top tradesmen and pays to £ for a top job. His business only works if he's producing quality work.

An example. He pays a decorator £130.00 a day on day rate .

Recently he has been under quoted by the competion so often that he's feeling pain. Why is this happening?

Some of the competition are using Eastern European labour paying ??? Not £120.00 a day I expect nor £100. More like £50 or £60. He cant compete.

The practise used is that the competion will even put semi-slilled painters in and tosh the job out, and then put a couple of good guys in at the end to tidy the work up.

Of course once bitten like this most customers will revert to a quality supplier. In the mean time my mates struggling. Any more out there?

If the Poles are working for £50-60 a day when the going rate is £130 then they are getting mugged. I can't see them becoming entrepreneurs or buying houses over here like the Indians or Greeks if they get taken for a ride that easily.

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Leefam83, As a plasterer myself I was discussing with a decorator once the skill levels of decorating. His response, "if you can pi*s you can paint". That's probably true for the bulk of the work, its just the finishing that counts and cutting in the edges.

If your mate's up against firms that employ cheap labour for unskilled work then that's just efficient business practice, like it or lump it. Of course I don't want to see the man suffer, and I don't want a whole heap of good polish plasterers turning up either. But come they will.

There is nothing inherent about shoving a roller up and down a wall that means you should get more than subsistence wages here or anywhere else in the world. We are global and as soon as the lazy dross that is the British workforce realise this the better.

On the world stage as a plasterer I'm probably worth no more than a cuople of dollars a day. I'm just lucky at the moment I'm in the right place to earn multiples of that. My income will drop as the UK continues its slide.

What bright and cheery thoughts this time on a Saturday morning. Right, I'm off to work now.

"Lazy dross that is the British workforce"!!

That's right *****, you are the only hard working non- Polish guy left in the country.

Why don't you pop to Cowley, and tell those redundant Rover workers, still looking for employment, what lazy British scum they are?

My brother has just been made redundant, mortgage and two kids, (out of work, must be scum) I could give you his address, you can go round and share your opinions with him, don't forget to book your hospital appointment before you leave.

As for the rest of you on here, who sit silently agreeing while this tosser slags off your fellow countrymen, you should hang your heads in shame.

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at least the poles are a lot better than some of the others we have been getting over the years and they should demand the same special treatment the others have received else it would all be racist

Polish people will fit in but it's just the jobs they are taking that upsets me.

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One aspect of the Eastern european immigration though - Eastern Europeans are generally well behaved and polite. Not like a large chunk of our indigenous population.

You won't find Polish/Czech/Latvian kids hanging around on street corners and hassling your family. That's because they are brought up with a sense of self-discipline and pride which some UK parents don't seem to imbue in their offspring any more.

Globalisation - we've got no choice but to 'get with the plan'. It's happening and no way to stop it. We'll all have to be smarter about the way we work in the future and also manage our money a lot more carefully if we don't want to be working til the day we drop dead.

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<i>If your mate's up against firms that employ cheap labour for unskilled work then that's just efficient business practice, like it or lump it. Of course I don't want to see the man suffer, and I don't want a whole heap of good polish plasterers turning up either. But come they will. </i>

Don't come complaining when you are paying their dole when previously employed people have their livelihood cut from underneath them. Once entwined by the costs in this country - mortgage, meeting trade standards, government imposed standards, liablility insurance, advertising, health and safety, whatever jumped up regulations the governemt next bring in I think you'll find a large proportion of exisitng trades are wiped out when trying to compete with a flighty ecomonic migrant who can stick two fingers up to the lot of it and if things go wrong can just toddle off home with a back pocket full of notes, no lawsuits, no tax, no problem.

Won't happen? Keep watching.

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Rainbow, I am part of the lazy dross of the British workforce, I work about 50 easyish hours a week. The Chinese work maybe 60 plus hard, and I mean bloody hard hours. The benchmark has shifted, up a gear.

I know some people who do work astoundingly hard, the vast majority don't though, not by international standards.

Sorry if you feel like the foreigners are taking away your candy at home and abroad, its just what's happening. I hate globalization, but frankly that's the situation we are in so deal with it.

One thing that does fascinate me regarding British manufacturing is this. Why didn't the unions look at the Austin allegro design and insist they went on strike. They should have walked out on the premise that they had too much pride as craftsmen to put their name against such a despicable insult to engineering. They should have seen the damage that type of product would do to the long term health of British manufacturing. In the mean time the chaps at Nissan took a different approach.

I wish it could have been different.

Maybe you should look up who the hell RJ Mitchell was and ask yourself then how proud I am to be British

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I was listening to Sir Digby Jones on the radio yesterday.

He just loves those Chinese doesnt he, when asked if Chinese and Asian students going to UK universities

arent we just training them to do our jobs.

No, no, no you just dont understand do you, he said, we will provide all the clever creative stuff.

I was watching a BBC newsnight program in the week showing how the Chinese and Asians are already

into advertising and marketing etc doing the donkey work is only a stepping stone for them.

Later on in the interview he completely contridicted hisself and said if british people dont buck their ideas up

the Chinese and Asians will be eating our dinners.

What a nice chap he is.

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OnlyMe, Don't worry, I wont be complaining. There's plenty enough people in the building trade who just stick two fingers up to it all now, I'm used to it. Tax dodge, no insurance, cash deals you name it.

If this other guy has to live here he has to be paying somebody for his space in the sun, if the market drags the price down so we are both living in bedsits then so be it. Really, threes not a lot I can do about it other than build my own good reputation.

We cant all be unemployed and pay for each others unemployment, at some point we have to accept that our living standard is eroding as other countries catch up. There's only so many resources to go round.

Hopefully we as a nation can strive for efficiency in our work place and build a formidable economic fighting force on the world stage, but we need to start doing that quickly.

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RJMitchell,

Must say you are certainly magnanimous in your approach to this subject. i fear that good companies will be ousted by bad paying pitiful wages (just like China is doing with manufacturing) and far from improving our lot general it will further erode any advantage we ever had and actually be a block to improvement. The way to advance and compete is to invest and improve production, not by undermining the whole lot. Wait till a bit of plaster falls on someone's head and you get a raft of regulations and a feepaying registration scheme and maybe you will see the real potential downfall in what I'm suggesting. The good guys, the honest businessmen, the ones you adhere to the rules and paying decent wages will be the ones who go to the wall. The Rachman type businesses will be the ones that have the most to gain from this situation.

Edited by OnlyMe
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OnlyMe, I just see it that I have a body and a brain, IQ ok but not fantastic as is my body. Now you line up a whole load of Chinese or poles and strip us all naked and what do you get, apart from a nasty sight, is a load of pretty much generic production units. Now I'm not talking on ethical grounds or the value of humanity here, I'm talking pure economics.

The only reason I'm doing better at the moment is because right now the lucks with me. Out of that line up of Chinese or poles there's a good few of them that fancy running a business properly, but cheaper than me, because they don't fancy a widescreen tele and a Spanish holiday. He gets the work I don't, my living will standards drop and he still runs a good shop.

The problem for us with the emerging economies and immigrants is that the buggers have a habit of learning how to improve their business practices. Until my living standard drops I simply cant compete on price in the long term.

I'll never have it so good again!

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Guest magnoliawalls

I have a feeling this will be a very temporary phenomenon. In the 80s the human traffic was going in the other direction, with lots of British builders going out to work in Germany. But how many of them stayed? Very few. And the immigration from Spain after it joined the EU proved to be fairly temporary (although not the Portuguese, if you have ever been to Jersey you will know what I'm talking about).

It depends on what things are like where these people come from - if things are tough here they will probably be tough in other places too.

I know a few immigrants from the Middle East and Africa, they want to stay here and their primary reason is security. If you are an unskilled immigrant from Nigeria, how bad would things have to get here before you would be better off going home?

I was listening to Sir Digby Jones on the radio yesterday.

He just loves those Chinese doesnt he, when asked if Chinese and Asian students going to UK universities

arent we just training them to do our jobs.

No, no, no you just dont understand do you, he said, we will provide all the clever creative stuff.

When I hear things like that I think the speaker is a racist twit.

Why is it acceptable to assume that Asians will be unable to take on the clever creative stuff?

The arrogance and complacency of some people is extroardinary. A friend is doing an MSc in Economics, he claims that almost everyone in the class come from developing countries (he is Indian himself). When I hear economists explain how outsourcing will benefit us, I wonder if their jobs will be next to go.

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Well, if I was Polish I'd be p***** off - they're losing their Drs, young workers, etc., and no, they will not go back if the country remains as it is with its corruption and stagnation. Damn Globalisation! It's time for the Poles to get their system in order back home and build a new Poland - for all the evils of Soviet Communism, I wonder if people there are starting to to yearn for the 'good old days' when everyone had a job and there was a reasonable level of social support and stability.

As for not planning to stay for good - reminds me of the Irish community in New York - used to go there to stay with friends and relations in the 80s - all 'planning to go back' once things improved back home - I only know one who has returned to the ould sod - I suspect this 'planning to go back' is just a psychological way of coping with living in a foreign land.

As for Digby the dolt - don't get me started!

Edited by gruffydd
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As for the rest of you on here, who sit silently agreeing while this tosser slags off your fellow countrymen, you should hang your heads in shame.

The brits are 40% less productive than the Americans and about 15-20% less productive than the French and Germans.. In addition products produced (and servies supplied) in the UK are on average of a lower quality..

The methods by which to increase productivity include work harder, investment, education, cultural bias towards excellence, etc etc

Many conclude though their own personal observation that aversion to hard work is one of the more significant reasons for low productivity in the UK

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I always thought the key issues holding back productivity in the UK were (1) Dire management (2) Under investment (3) A financial system that concentrates only on the short-term and (4) Education.

We work some of the longest hours in Europe.

From my experience of working in a number of countries I'd put education and training at the top of the list. I believe that this feeds through to management levels. Too many office workers are complacent about the challenges of globilisation and Eastern European immigration, failing to see that their jobs can be outsourced or filled by lower waged staff.

EDIT: I should add that much of my financial planning involves an assumption of a 30-50% drop in wages over the next 10 years if I remain in the UK.

Edited by a j
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I like that, you put words into other peoples mouths by implying they are against Polish immigration when the poster had made no such statement. Then you gone on to attempt to debate a lie of your own making

I suspect your unhealthy obsession with peoples from the Middle East and Africa is more to do with skin tone than anything else. And for that very reason I don't wish to debate your obsessions because I find you .....well I reckon you get the picture :ph34r:

If you don't want people to think you're agianst polish immigration, then it may be an idea not to make alarmist posts about it.

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Rainbow, I am part of the lazy dross of the British workforce, I work about 50 easyish hours a week. The Chinese work maybe 60 plus hard, and I mean bloody hard hours. The benchmark has shifted, up a gear.

I know some people who do work astoundingly hard, the vast majority don't though, not by international standards.

Sorry if you feel like the foreigners are taking away your candy at home and abroad, its just what's happening. I hate globalization, but frankly that's the situation we are in so deal with it.

One thing that does fascinate me regarding British manufacturing is this. Why didn't the unions look at the Austin allegro design and insist they went on strike. They should have walked out on the premise that they had too much pride as craftsmen to put their name against such a despicable insult to engineering. They should have seen the damage that type of product would do to the long term health of British manufacturing. In the mean time the chaps at Nissan took a different approach.

I wish it could have been different.

Maybe you should look up who the hell RJ Mitchell was and ask yourself then how proud I am to be British

Don't try to ring it.

Where in my post did I mention foreigners? Good Luck to them all if they are grafting for a living. I'm talking about you labelling the British as lazy dross.

Of course if in the early hours your house happens to catch fire, I suppose you'll be expecting the lazy dross to arrive double quick time to save your sorry ****.

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If you don't want people to think you're agianst polish immigration, then it may be an idea not to make alarmist posts about it.

I'm taking a rare break from lurking here, because it's interesting seeing Poles discussed. I'm English, but I speak Polish, and my wife, now a UK citizen, comes from Poland.

It might come as news to a lot of people in Britain that many of the new wave of Poles over here are themselves incredibly racist. Of course they don't express this in English, the language not being one of their strong points, but one only has to read the weekly free paper Polish Express or a forum like londynek.net to see openly racist views expressed in a way which, were the monoglot British authorities able to understand them, could probably lead to prosecution for inciting racial hatred!

A few weeks ago, for example, the main story in Polish Express concerned a bloke who had ended up having limbs amuptated in hospital after being apparently chased onto a railway line by a group of 'Murzyni', i.e. Blacks. If this had been in the English-language media, it would probably have been mentioned that police are seeking a group of black males, etc., for identification purposes, but in the Polish paper the main emphasis was on the skin colour of the alleged miscreants. The paper acknowledged the following week that some people found the tone of the article racist, but the editor brushed off such claims.

And today, on the londynek.net forum, somebody -- apparently in all seriousness -- asked whether it is true that, until 1994, black people in Britain were forbidden from riding on the top decks of buses! Somebody replied sensibly, pointing out that for black Britons this is home, whereas new Polish immigrants are merely guests, but a few people piped up in response with the usual racist bile. (I'd post an example with a translation, but the lousy londynek server is being hopelessly slow at the moment.)

I'm not sure why I'm writing all this, not least because it has nothing to do with HPC, but I get the impression that left-thinking people think the new-generation Polish immigrants are all terribly civilised and educated and hard-working; hard-working they generally are, but they're not all as educated and civilised as is often thought. Also it's worth pointing out that the Polish education system is not as great as people sometimes think as, in the 1980s, at least in the area of Silesia whence my wife hails, children of 'workers' were only permitted to go to technical 'schools' and were deprived of a general education.

Just some food for thought, anyhow ...

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  • 443 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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