Housing Benefit For 3 Extra Bedrooms Please

[Fairyland]

There is only one solution, current welfare system needs to change. Till then some will play it to their advantage and others will suffer.

Do you think a single salary kind of benefit/citizen's income per adult equivalent to minimum wages would be a good start? And additional disability living allowance for disabled.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Fairyland

[CunningPlan]

Where do you get those figures from?

Why exclude someone on less than £25k (down to national minimum/living wage) who doesn't get benefits?

And isn't the £80k quite modest set against London housing costs?

Because two wrongs don't make a right?

I exclude families below £25k with no benefits because they are not the squeezed middle - they are the poor. But actually, are there any renter families on less than £25k with no benefits in the SE?

I am talking about the SE, which to me excludes London otherwise the numbers are just plain stupid.

[iamnumerate]

Yes, I want poor families to be really poor, not having enough money to by shoes. Look, I think you have managed to draw together a number of unlinked things which annoy you, and you don't know the purpose of, in order to rant against the Labour Party.

In principle, tax credits are very clever, they stop people being caught in the poverty trap and ensure a reduction in child poverty levels. No doubt you will bang on here about fags, colour TVs and shoes, but kids need to be looked after, and we all have our vices, so as a smoker, why should I deny a mother or father fags when they are bringing up the next generation.

The link between immigration and tax credits - really? Any evidence on this? I would imagine marginal, questionable or non-existent. Articles from the sun, mail and express do not count.

As for this country being bankrupt, far from it. The wealth is concentrated very much at the top, any country that sells houses at 100m plus has its priorities wrong, we should generate more in tax to pay for our social system.

I know an immigrant who came here argued with her husband, didn't want to see him again or let him see their son but still stayed here. [He was not able to go to her country]. I would guess it was either because she liked the free housing or was a big fan of cricket which you can't see in Spain so easily.

[CunningPlan]

Now Roy - since we seem to be kind of agreeing on some things...

One of the main reasons for this absurd situation is that HOUSE PRICES ARE TOO HIGH.

Rent at the best part of £18k (bear in mind that is the LHA figure so you will be getting something pretty poor) is just a mental amount of money for anyone to pay out of earned income.

House prices need to crash so that, by circuitous routs, rents will fall and the choosing to work option will become more beneficial at a much lower income bracket.

Do you agree we need a serious house price correction?

[Royw6]

Now Roy - since we seem to be kind of agreeing on some things...

One of the main reasons for this absurd situation is that HOUSE PRICES ARE TOO HIGH.

Rent at the best part of £18k (bear in mind that is the LHA figure so you will be getting something pretty poor) is just a mental amount of money for anyone to pay out of earned income.

House prices need to crash so that, by circuitous routs, rents will fall and the choosing to work option will become more beneficial at a much lower income bracket.

Do you agree we need a serious house price correction?

Yes fully, and we need a property tax like we had in the 1970s - before I was born - to prevent housing being an investment as opposed to somewhere you live. However, house prices have very little to do with migration, more to do with right to buy, planning restrictions and self interest of politicians. I think what you are about to see is the "corporatisation" of rental property which will not improve things. We could soon be renting property from a Canadian teachers pension scheme, deutchebahn or the Chinese government.

What we really need is a price crash and social housing.

[CunningPlan]

Yes fully, and we need a property tax like we had in the 1970s - before I was born - to prevent housing being an investment as opposed to somewhere you live. However, house prices have very little to do with migration, more to do with right to buy, planning restrictions and self interest of politicians. I think what you are about to see is the "corporatisation" of rental property which will not improve things. We could soon be renting property from a Canadian teachers pension scheme, deutchebahn or the Chinese government.

What we really need is a price crash and social housing.

Thank you.

I have no problem with the 'corporatisation' of the renting market. Those institutions will build new properties to let and will not be taking opportunities away from OO's.

[justthisbloke]

Exactly right, I am the same as you in wishing to be self sufficient but may well sit next to you in a state funded old people's home one day when my savings run out. At some point nearly all of us will be dependent on the state, and our education is proof of that.

And that's the tragedy. The population have willingly entered a state of dependency.

It is still just possible to retain a modicum of independence - but the tax take is so big now that you need to earn very big and spend very miserly. Wrt education - I'd never put a child in a state school. Fortunately homeschool is both free of cost and, for the time being, free of state interference. I say "for now" as I reckon it's another avenue of independence that'll be taken from us soon.

Old age? Well, if I end up penniless and dependent on handouts coerced from anonymous strangers, then I'll have failed in my ambition of independence. But I'd rather try for this high hurdle than accept dependence as inevitable. I'm optimistic though - I have savings and, most importantly, good family around me.

You are also correct, you have identified that tax credits are really for the kids, not the adults, which is why they end. I don't want kids paying for their parents profligacy through poverty. As for the families who you referred to I the first para, they need the help while their kids grow up but can then stand on their own feet.

The families I cited as examples did not need any help. The earned plenty - but (quite understandably) chose to spent time with their children and have the taxpayer fund that career break. I'm not a big fan of means testing at all - but when you see people with investments, pensions, and paid off housing taking a tax payer funded career break you really do have to shake your head in bafflement.

I am not defending the existing tax credit system, but would flag that whatever replaces it likely be far worse unless you fight the good fight. The argument should be that wealth should be distributed fairer. Spyguy suggested increasing the tax free allowance to encourage work, a good idea when linked to a citizens wage (Sarah a citizen wage might answer your concerns on migrants as it would only be available if you were a citizen).

Instinctively I agree that a CI is the way to go. Sadly, I don't think government will ever give up the tools of social engineering and the ability to reward lobby groups that the current complex tax and transfer arrangements allow. If CI ever comes in, it won't be in the clean, fair, and simple manner that we like to envisage.

[Royw6]

Thank you.

I have no problem with the 'corporatisation' of the renting market. Those institutions will build new properties to let and will not be taking opportunities away from OO's.

I hope you we correct, however these organisations will wish to maximise profits and there in lies the pickle. You may well end up with an OPEC style price control and maximisation situation with a "corporately acceptable" level of homelessness - or Hong Kong style cage families - seriously, these exist, I did some voluntary work with them, left me seriously depressed for humanity.

Also, house prices have to crash is some areas by absurdly high figures to have any effect, people and families will be ruined and that is tragic.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Royw6

[CunningPlan]

I hope you we correct, however these organisations will wish to maximise profits and there in lies the pickle. You may well end up with an OPEC style price control and maximisation situation with a "corporately acceptable" level of homelessness - or Hong Kong style cage families - seriously, these exist, I did some voluntary work with them, left me seriously depressed for humanity.

Also, house prices have to crash is some areas by absurdly high figures to have any effect, people and families will be ruined and that is tragic.

People and families are being ruined now. And they are the ones that had no choice. In a crash, even if some do suffer it will be because they had a choice and made the wrong one.

[Royw6]

And that's the tragedy. The population have willingly entered a state of dependency.

It is still just possible to retain a modicum of independence - but the tax take is so big now that you need to earn very big and spend very miserly. Wrt education - I'd never put a child in a state school. Fortunately homeschool is both free of cost and, for the time being, free of state interference. I say "for now" as I reckon it's another avenue of independence that'll be taken from us soon.

Old age? Well, if I end up penniless and dependent on handouts coerced from anonymous strangers, then I'll have failed in my ambition of independence. But I'd rather try for this high hurdle than accept dependence as inevitable. I'm optimistic though - I have savings and, most importantly, good family around me.

The families I cited as examples did not need any help. The earned plenty - but (quite understandably) chose to spent time with their children and have the taxpayer fund that career break. I'm not a big fan of means testing at all - but when you see people with investments, pensions, and paid off housing taking a tax payer funded career break you really do have to shake your head in bafflement.

Instinctively I agree that a CI is the way to go. Sadly, I don't think government will ever give up the tools of social engineering and the ability to reward lobby groups that the current complex tax and transfer arrangements allow. If CI ever comes in, it won't be in the clean, fair, and simple manner that we like to envisage.

Home schooling, I'm impressed. Most families I know would kill each other if they had to spend more than a few hours together , so you must be doing something right.

In terms of the state, we are all reliant on it for protection and for certain provision such as health. It is inevitable in a society and it is possible for us all to improve it, voluntary work I keep banging on about, but it is amazing. It helps me and I enjoy it, and it benefits others. So in a society I have no problem with being dependent on the state, paying for it and contributing to it. Without the NHS I wouldn't be here.

Agree regarding the citizens wage, unless we motivate, lobby, flatter and harass decision makers, we will get nothing of note.

[porca misèria]

Thank you.

I have no problem with the 'corporatisation' of the renting market. Those institutions will build new properties to let and will not be taking opportunities away from OO's.

And best of all, they won't be evicting you unless you do something to deserve it.

[Digsby]

Apologies for crapple predictive text in the above. Can't be ar$ed yet again to edit it

I had to laugh ?

I looked up "crapple" to see if it's an actual word, and it appears it is, though I don't imagine it'd be in an iPhone's dictionary.

It's in my Android's though!

[One-percent]

I had to laugh

I looked up "crapple" to see if it's an actual word, and it appears it is, though I don't imagine it'd be in an iPhone's dictionary.

It's in my Android's though!

Oh it's real and infecting my iPad. So much so I've stopped using it for work email. Mind it could have been worse, it told the corporate world that I would do the washing lol

[davidg]

On 8/23/2016 at 3:27 PM, CunningPlan said:

Thank you.

I have no problem with the 'corporatisation' of the renting market. Those institutions will build new properties to let and will not be taking opportunities away from OO's.

Welcome to your Uber rabbit hutch, due to a current pricing surge in your area your rent is being increase 400%, if you are having trouble paying this Uberbank will arrange a loan to carry you over the current surge.

[CunningPlan]

1 hour ago, davidg said:

Welcome to your Uber rabbit hutch, due to a current pricing surge in your area your rent is being increase 400%, if you are having trouble paying this Uberbank will arrange a loan to carry you over the current surge.

Probably a bad analogy. If, in my area, Uber fares increased 400%, they would just be back to what the other firms charge for an inferior service.