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justthisbloke

Another Reason To Use Cash

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Another reason to keep your money out of the banks and use cash:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/how-your-bank-spies-on-your-exact-monthly-income---and-shares-it/

In fact Equifax, one of the big three credit reference agencies, even boasts (to business customers) that it collects information for such tiny transactions as one consumer repaying another "for an evening out".

You don't need to be overly tin-foil-hatted to worry about the security of these datasets or might legally be looking at them.

I keep a minimal cash balance to cover direct debits and withdraw a month's "salary" as cash to cover everything else. It's good for privacy, for security (cash can't be hacked), for resilience (immune to electronic system failures), and for budgeting.

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Equifax and the like have their days numbered. The EU Global Data Protection Regulations GDPR put some pretty draconian burdens on 3rd party data processors, brexit or not.

I doubt they can legally provide an audit trail of where they get data and the permissions to track this in the future.

The Americans on the other hand...

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I tried to get Nationwide to confirm or deny this on Twitter but they just kept trying to avoid answering.

"I want to know if Nationwide provides them with income information.A yes or no answer please."

"It's not a yes or no answer. Different credit agencies will require different information, dependant on circumstances."

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On 8/14/2016 at 4:02 PM, justthisbloke said:

And then they lose it all to organised crime, and damn near prove they are much the same kind of enterprise, albeit for the "organised" bit:

How Equifax Turned Its Massive Hack Into an Even Worse ‘Dumpster Fire’

In fact, they are so disorganised, they haven't even told some 44m Brits whether they have been affected yet, and that is after ~6 weeks, and yes, that probably means you!

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On 14/08/2016 at 9:26 PM, sexton said:

I tried to get Nationwide to confirm or deny this on Twitter but they just kept trying to avoid answering.

"I want to know if Nationwide provides them with income information.A yes or no answer please."

"It's not a yes or no answer. Different credit agencies will require different information, dependant on circumstances."

That last statement dependant on circumstances reads as we give them everything because of differences in circumstances, kind of suggests a yes then IMHO

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The fact that monopoly utility companies such as water can report people to absolute shtshows like Equifax is akin to the mafia.

Credit ratings agencies need to be checked; Our government should rate them and open up the market ro have an independent non-profit body.

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2 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

And then they lose it all to organised crime, and damn near prove they are much the same kind of enterprise, albeit for the "organised" bit:

How Equifax Turned Its Massive Hack Into an Even Worse ‘Dumpster Fire’

In fact, they are so disorganised, they haven't even told some 44m Brits whether they have been affected yet, and that is after ~6 weeks, and yes, that probably means you!

So we could all have our credit scores on equifax re-evaluated to make up for this?

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Just now, Tapori said:

The fact that monopoly utility companies such as water can report people to absolute shtshows like Equifax is akin to the mafia.

Credit ratings agencies need to be checked; Our government should rate them and open up the market ro have an independent non-profit body.

I'm seem to remember a scandal in the building trade where large companies would keep and share information on black listed workers.  This was used by other companies who shared the list to decide if they hire a worker in future or not.  You could be on the list for simply complaining.  What's the friggin difference between this scheme and a credit ratings agency keeping similar records and blocking people from getting credit

https://*******.com/y82b2u9h

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2 hours ago, giggler000 said:

I'm seem to remember a scandal in the building trade where large companies would keep and share information on black listed workers.  This was used by other companies who shared the list to decide if they hire a worker in future or not.  You could be on the list for simply complaining.  What's the friggin difference between this scheme and a credit ratings agency keeping similar records and blocking people from getting credit

https://*******.com/y82b2u9h

You are indeed correct. Very big news it should have been.

The argument with credit is always "But no-one has any right to credit." But is billing utilities for use, credit? Credit cards and loans are credit, not bills. Regardless, credit agencies have far too much power and amendments are tortuous to have corrected in most peoples files. Plus it is weird how there is no clarity. I know of many Muslim businesses who have had accounts closed simply for being critical of say, Saudi Arabia or the UAE - Peter Oborne did a good doc. on this. 

The finance system needs better structure relating to credit, clarity, transparency in methods and guidelines and oversight.

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14 minutes ago, Tapori said:

You are indeed correct. Very big news it should have been.

The argument with credit is always "But no-one has any right to credit." But is billing utilities for use, credit? Credit cards and loans are credit, not bills. Regardless, credit agencies have far too much power and amendments are tortuous to have corrected in most peoples files.

I think there has always been a notion that anyone who needs to borrow money has no choice but to surrender some of their 'rights'. So in the past, people were put in debtors prisons.

And by historical comparison, a loss of financial freedom / loss of privacy seems like an inevitable, if not acceptable quid pro quo.

The problem, of course, is that debt and credit have become so endemic, so deep-seated and so necessary to our economy and its citizens that this loss of freedom and privacy manifests itself as a kind of society-wide, Big-Brother.

And of course, we are to blame, because it has been our desire to live beyond our ways and means that has fed 'the beast' that now oppresses almost all of us.

Moreover, the rise of the Big-Brother, supranational, credit agencies, means that even those of us who don't seek credit, still end up embroiled in their schemes, only to become unwilling and unwitting victims of their sloppy, megalomaniac, ambition.

And in that regard, cash may well keep the bailiffs from taking your car and tv, but its confiscation won't make you feel any better for having to pay off a debt you never ran up. On the other hand, at least it is less visible than money at the bank.

Edited by Sledgehead

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the answer is simple. dont get credit. never ever get credit. dont get a mortgage which is just leveraging your life away, if your pay cant buy a home then dont buy one. if you need a car buy one you can afford on your wages or income. credit is the evil in the room, and all people should leave it behind. only then do you have real power over your own destiny.   

 

the problem is people unwilling to wait and no good at saving. people who saved were the ones that prospered years ago. and its no diffrent now. 

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1 hour ago, jimmy2x3 said:

the answer is simple. dont get credit. never ever get credit. dont get a mortgage which is just leveraging your life away, if your pay cant buy a home then dont buy one. if you need a car buy one you can afford on your wages or income. credit is the evil in the room, and all people should leave it behind. only then do you have real power over your own destiny.   

 

the problem is people unwilling to wait and no good at saving. people who saved were the ones that prospered years ago. and its no diffrent now. 

Can't see it catching on.

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1 hour ago, jimmy2x3 said:

the answer is simple. dont get credit. never ever get credit. dont get a mortgage which is just leveraging your life away, if your pay cant buy a home then dont buy one. if you need a car buy one you can afford on your wages or income. credit is the evil in the room, and all people should leave it behind. only then do you have real power over your own destiny.   

 

the problem is people unwilling to wait and no good at saving. people who saved were the ones that prospered years ago. and its no diffrent now. 

The problem with that approach isn't so much the obvious loans but all the other stuff that is considered credit and shows up on your credit agency records. Avoiding all of that would be a real nightmare not to mention expensive. E.g. credit cards even when you pay them off in full each month, any kind of non-prepaid phone contract, most utilities (might be possible to avoid by having a pre-payment meter installed), broadband, insurance paid by instalments and on and on. Without some major rule changes, we are fairly well screwed! Having said that, GDPR is going to be interesting. If you're not concerned about your credit score (which many people aren't) it may well be possible to force companies like Equifax to delete everything they have stored about you on a periodic basis. Just a few thousand people doing that every month would cause major issues for them - in principle, they'd even have to go and delete your data from backup media if they have it.

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1 hour ago, jimmy2x3 said:

the answer is simple. dont get credit. never ever get credit. dont get a mortgage which is just leveraging your life away, if your pay cant buy a home then dont buy one. if you need a car buy one you can afford on your wages or income. credit is the evil in the room, and all people should leave it behind. only then do you have real power over your own destiny.   

 

the problem is people unwilling to wait and no good at saving. people who saved were the ones that prospered years ago. and its no diffrent now. 

The problem is that your mail can be redirected and somebody can steal your identity.

Then they can take out credit in your name w/o your knowledge.

Then the bailiffs track you down to your real address and force entry and take all your sh*t you bought w/ cash, plus any cash they find under your mattress.

I'm thinking this is not the result you were aiming for, right?

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1 hour ago, jimmy2x3 said:

the problem is people unwilling to wait and no good at saving. people who saved were the ones that prospered years ago. and its no diffrent now. 

Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Banks and governments don't want you to save. They don't want you to store wealth. Any savings you have can be rapidly eroded away to nothing. Then you become another "customer" for the bank.

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57 minutes ago, Dreamcasting said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Banks and governments don't want you to save. They don't want you to store wealth. Any savings you have can be rapidly eroded away to nothing. Then you become another "customer" for the bank.

im not talking about saving out of the system. or getting a phone contract im talking about credit itself. just dont take it out. you can leave yer money in the bank or invest it whatever you like. just dont take out credit for sofas or cars or houses. you dont need it. you need some self disipline though and the credit buisness thrives on peoples lack of self disipline.  ive said before and will say again. the best thing anyone can do for their finances is exactly the opposite of what you would think. the best thing is to have a bad credit rating. no credit, no bills, bo problem and you will learn to save when you having nothing to fall back on as many many people have found out to their betterment. 

 

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9 minutes ago, jimmy2x3 said:

im not talking about saving out of the system. or getting a phone contract im talking about credit itself. just dont take it out. you can leave yer money in the bank or invest it whatever you like. just dont take out credit for sofas or cars or houses. you dont need it. you need some self disipline though and the credit buisness thrives on peoples lack of self disipline.  ive said before and will say again. the best thing anyone can do for their finances is exactly the opposite of what you would think. the best thing is to have a bad credit rating. no credit, no bills, bo problem and you will learn to save when you having nothing to fall back on as many many people have found out to their betterment. 

 

Okay, so you might have a tiny fraction more control over your privacy.

But staying in credit won't stop somebody else taking out credit in your name.

Indeed, you are unlikely to destroy your credit profile just be using cash. You may actually have a much better one than somebody who misses the odd minimum payment on their cc.

What will destroy your rating is when somebody borrows heavily against your ID and you then refuse to own the debt. At that point you will face either seizure of assets or jail, and an expensive process trying to rest control of your identity again.

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Just now, Sledgehead said:

Okay, so you might have a tiny fraction more control over your privacy.

But staying in credit won't stop somebody else taking out credit in your name.

Indeed, you are unlikely to destroy your credit profile just be using cash. You may actually have a much better one than somebody who misses the odd minimum payment on their cc.

What will destroy your rating is when somebody borrows heavily against your ID and you then refuse to own the debt. At that point you will face either seizure of assets or jail, and an expensive process trying to rest control of your identity again.

but your talking about something that could happen to anyone. and infact they could do what they like i wouldnt be responsible for theft. im sure its very easy to prove it was someone else that took out all that credit and withdrew it from a nigerian bank where ive never been. 

 

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1 minute ago, jimmy2x3 said:

but your talking about something that could happen to anyone. and infact they could do what they like i wouldnt be responsible for theft. im sure its very easy to prove it was someone else that took out all that credit and withdrew it from a nigerian bank where ive never been. 

 

It wasn't me who said cash was the answer: I was just pointing out it wasn't.

As for ID fraud, some is easy to prove, some less so. If somebody wants to raise a sizable loan in my name, the best way is to impersonate me for a couple of months: open the account at my local branch, do a weekly shop in my home town, receive monthly wage-size payments into the account from a bogus local company etc. All the stuff done by, say, illegals, and all stuff I could do / arrange myself. That's a trickier thing to clear your name from than a withdrawl from a Nigerian bank.

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1 hour ago, Sledgehead said:

The problem is that your mail can be redirected and somebody can steal your identity.

Then they can take out credit in your name w/o your knowledge.

Then the bailiffs track you down to your real address and force entry and take all your sh*t you bought w/ cash, plus any cash they find under your mattress.

I'm thinking this is not the result you were aiming for, right?

If the credit agency have zero information about you, they will turn down the fraudulent credit application. So then it doesnt matter what information gets leaked.

I once had an application for a store card turned down because I have zero credit history, I wasnt particularly bothered it was for some 10% discount on a pair of shoes.

A few years later I accidentally forgot to pay off a CC bill at the end of the month and I think my credit rating went up, I suddenly got a bunch of offers to take out additional cards, the whole system is fecked.

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21 minutes ago, Habeas Domus said:

If the credit agency have zero information about you, they will turn down the fraudulent credit application. So then it doesnt matter what information gets leaked.

I once had an application for a store card turned down because I have zero credit history, I wasnt particularly bothered it was for some 10% discount on a pair of shoes.

A few years later I accidentally forgot to pay off a CC bill at the end of the month and I think my credit rating went up, I suddenly got a bunch of offers to take out additional cards, the whole system is fecked.

How can you have a zero credit history and a credit card? Not poss

Even a phone line will get you checked unless you somehow pay them in advance.

Utilities will need to be paid on a meter to avoid credit checks. Any attempt to change your supplier will result is a hard check and an entry (impacting your credit score) in your credit file.

Bank account? Maybe you can avoid one if you go cash in hand.

Student loan? Ditto.

Car insurance? Maybe if you pay upfront.

And once you have a credit file, does it ever go away?

Edited by Sledgehead

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3 hours ago, jimmy2x3 said:

the answer is simple. dont get credit. never ever get credit. dont get a mortgage which is just leveraging your life away, if your pay cant buy a home then dont buy one. if you need a car buy one you can afford on your wages or income. credit is the evil in the room, and all people should leave it behind. only then do you have real power over your own destiny.   

Unfortunately this is currently not possible for the majority.

Under our debt-based, privately issued money system, new loans must continuously be taken out to maintain a viable money supply.

Without new loans the money supply would rapidly shrink as extant loans were repaid and the economy would quickly grind to a halt.

Collectively, we rent our essential medium of exchange from the cartel of banks, we are forced to borrow it into existence at interest.

Crazy, but true.

For a much better system see   http://www.positivemoney.org.uk

Edited by The Spaniard

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