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Hinkley Point C To Go Ahead After Edf Board Approves Project


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.....of course you are a Guardian reader ...the BBC's daily lefty bible....the issue here is arranging the finance for both the builder and the high cost per unit compared to the world market cost for the tax payer....both Labour and the Tories fudged the issue over the past decade......it may be too late to look for an alternative solution .... :rolleyes:

I've long since thought of the Grauniad as the print arm of the BBC. Back in the 80's and 90's the BBC seemed to channel much of their recruitment via the Grauniad's Media Jobs pull out.

Meanwhile re Hinkley Point's delay - I wonder if it's a shot across the bows to the French bloke who seems to loathe the Brits for Brexit, and who the EU have put in charge of their negotiations?

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surely a program to subsidise micro combined heat power installations nationally, in conjunction with minimum insulation upgrade requirements would not only reduce energy consumption, decentralise power generation, create more jobs for longer and be more efficient? £18bn would susidize a lot of 4-5kw mCHP domestic plants to replace current stock, even at £8-10k per installation.

for 5kW electricity it would need to be > 30kW heating. For a normal house this would only be needed a fraction of the day - maybe 10% of the time for a normal mildish winter.

So, you'd need about 10 million mCHP installs.

It would cost £80 billion (by your estimate).

And only then It would only generate electricity when it was cold (and the boiler was needed). And if the household had solar hot water then it wouldn't contribute at all in summer.

[That's not to say mCHP isn't a sensible thing - arguably all gas boilers should be CHP. But it isn't a magic bullet]

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We really are living in the age of procrastination, can kicking and crack paper-overing.

I think the government had cold feet about the ridiculous deal they'd negotiated - but thought that perhaps EDF would pull out and then they could just moan about how awful it was. Now that EDF has confirmed they want to proceed they've got to actually do something.

Edited by dgul
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The fixed price electricity contract, while ludicrously expensive and vulnerable to interest rates (the guaranteed price paid rises if interest rates rise, plus it is index linked), does at least protect against delays.

The contract expires 35 years after the scheduled operation date. If the plant is delivered late, the contract does not provide an automatic extension.

At current market value (which has recently dropped sharply due to the availability of very low cost natural gas), about £1 billion. At the fixed price, it will bring in a guaranteed £2.4 billion per year in revenues, assuming that the plant delivers the planned reliability, leading to a net subsidy of about £1.4 billion per year (subject to prevailing market and financial conditions).

Given an expected capital cost of around £18 billion, and construction period of around 8-10 years, the yield for the construction consortium will be extremely generous provided that the plant performs (around 10% per year over the construction + contract period). However, this return is quite sensitive to delays, it's down to about 8% in the event of a 2 year delay and pro-rata cost overrun (but still generous for plausible levels of delay, given that this is the 4th plant of this design to be built in the world, so most of the kinks have already been worked out, or are at least known).

But none of the other three are completed yet FWIU ,so the reliability is yet to be proven

From what i have read the the plant in China was at a commissioning stage when it became apparent there was safety systems missing from the plant that were not even in the plans/drawings for the plant when compared to the identical French plant under construction

IMO a Severn barrage would have been a far better option at the estimated cost of £10-12 billion all be it with a slightly lower projected output

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From what i have read the the plant in China was at a commissioning stage when it became apparent there was safety systems missing from the plant that were not even in the plans/drawings for the plant when compared to the identical French plant under construction

Who trusts Chinese engineering? AIUI there's no plans for Chinese anything other than money in Hinkley Point (although it's a desperately sad state of affairs when we have to go begging to sell ourselves out to other countries like that).

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Who trusts Chinese engineering? AIUI there's no plans for Chinese anything other than money in Hinkley Point (although it's a desperately sad state of affairs when we have to go begging to sell ourselves out to other countries like that).

It`s irrelevant who`s doing the engineering French/Chinese ,its the fact it got to that stage before they realised is the worrying part,when the four plants are supposed to be identical ,add in the fact they are years late

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I think the government had cold feet about the ridiculous deal they'd negotiated - but thought that perhaps EDF would pull out and then they could just moan about how awful it was. Now that EDF has confirmed they want to proceed they've got to actually do something.

I have a feeling that many of Osbourne's dealings are being unpicked, or at the least scrutinised, by the new administration.

Edited by LiveinHope
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From what i have read the the plant in China was at a commissioning stage when it became apparent there was safety systems missing from the plant that were not even in the plans/drawings for the plant when compared to the identical French plant under construction

I'm not aware of this specific issue, but there has certainly been abject failure of project management by Areva, the designer of the plants, at every EPR under construction.

The Finnish and French plants were started well before design was complete, in particular the control systems. So, while the Finnish plant has been structurally complete since about 2012, the regulator refused to sign off the control software/hardware to permit commissioning to start. Commissioning is now under way, but expected to take at least another 18 months.

The French plant has had problems with the design of various components failing conformance testing after having already been installed. This includes the reactor itself, as well as a variety of safety valves.

The fabrication of the Finnish reactor vessel was subcontracted out to Japan, and appears to be fine, but Areva decided to fabricate the French and Chinese ones in-house. They installed the reactor vessels, before they had performed validation testing on a prototype. By the time, they performed the validation testing and realised that it failed the current standards, the French and one of the Chinese reactor vessels were already installed so deeply that retrieving them would be exceptionally difficult and risky; nevermind the fact that this is a £100 million+ part, with a multi-year lead time.

EDF and Areva are still wondering what to do with the French reactor vessel. As far as I am aware, the Chinese have taken the view that the test passed the standards at the time the design was approved for construction in China, and that they are happy with that.

There is a lot riding on the success of the French plant at Flamanville. The government has said that they will underwrite EDF's bonds issued for construction of HPC, but they have a get out clause. There is an option for the govt to cancel the guarantee if the Flamanville plant has not been successfully commissioned by 2020.

Edited by ChumpusRex
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Where did you get all this CR? I'm casting about for things to do with my evenings to fill the hole left when I give up boozing, and power station geekery would certainly keep me occupied for a couple of hours at a time.

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Smells fishy. Does Vince have scores to settle?

Chinese investors, like any other shareholders/investors in a project in the UK, will be subject to UK law. If they get any nuclear expertise out of it, that's between them and EDF - and presumably already happening through projects elsewhere in the world.

Comparing long-term strike prices to currently-depressed oil prices - massively subsidised by being excused the environmental costs and safety standards we rightly impose on nuclear power - does us no favours.

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Smells fishy. Does Vince have scores to settle?

Chinese investors, like any other shareholders/investors in a project in the UK, will be subject to UK law. If they get any nuclear expertise out of it, that's between them and EDF - and presumably already happening through projects elsewhere in the world.

Comparing long-term strike prices to currently-depressed oil prices - massively subsidised by being excused the environmental costs and safety standards we rightly impose on nuclear power - does us no favours.

Vince just likes to get his name in the press and be the centre of attention, a special flower. I can quite believe what he says is right, but what he says doesn't add anything to the story other than his name, as usual. I have always thought he is odious.

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Vince just likes to get his name in the press and be the centre of attention, a special flower. I can quite believe what he says is right, but what he says doesn't add anything to the story other than his name, as usual. I have always thought he is odious.

This ^ . Surely he is ready for retirement? He was shown to be able to deliver all sorts of clever comments during the financial crisis when he had no power. But when in government was shown to be able to deliver absolutely nothing!

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This ^ . Surely he is ready for retirement? He was shown to be able to deliver all sorts of clever comments during the financial crisis when he had no power. But when in government was shown to be able to deliver absolutely nothing!

Yep, a very good critic of government, but out of his depth in government.

Lots of people like that. Some of them have a voice, like columnists, think-tanks. Most of us just bore in the bar, or post to places like HPC.

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Yep, a very good critic of government, but out of his depth in government.

Lots of people like that. Some of them have a voice, like columnists, think-tanks. Most of us just bore in the bar, or post to places like HPC.

This is nothing more than blatant sht stirring based on nothing more than what a proven liar is saying, he's anything but a good critic.

And to make such a comment is hardly in the national interest with the soon to be the worlds largest economy.

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Are there penalty clauses for cancelling now?

I'm very surprised EDF has approved the project. Perhaps they are gambling on the government cancelling and triggering a payout. And the government, rather than cancelling and triggering a payout, decide to defer.

An article in today's Sunday Times make reference to a compensation liability of "billions" but no other details.

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An article in today's Sunday Times make reference to a compensation liability of "billions" but no other details.

I didn't think that any agreements so far were binding. However, EDF have reportedly spent several £ billion already on the project.

There have been close to 1000 workers at the site for the last couple of years doing preparatory groundworks and excavations. Then there has been the ton of money spent on site-specific design, public liaison and supply chain development, planning enquiries, additional infrastructure engineering and planning for the grid works to connect it, etc.

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This is nothing more than blatant sht stirring based on nothing more than what a proven liar is saying, he's anything but a good critic.

And to make such a comment is hardly in the national interest with the soon to be the worlds largest economy.

Plus he got a little stiffy when he saw who the EU had lined up to negotiate Brexit with the UK.

****.

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