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Goldmoney Vs Bullionvault

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I have used Goldmoney. I have now got about 25% of my savings there. So far they have been very good and straightforward and I like their website and system.

But the gold is in London, unlike Bullionvault which allows you to store it in Switzerland.

Which is best. Goldmoney are in the Channel Islands. Can we trust the UK gov not to get a handle on Goldmoney holdings for tax purposes etc?

Which one did you choose, and why?

Note: I am only interested in comparing the allocated gold systems, not the unallocated ones like GBS

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I used Goldmoney too. Mostly because some of the guys on here were talking about it. Chuz pointed out that you can pay for the gold using an internet transfer which I also find very convenient. The buying spread seems quite high which would be a concern normally, but if gold keeps on going then its unimportant. Still like my gold coins though so its a 50/50 split at the moment.

I dont think we can rely on keeping Goldmoney holdings a secret from the government. I dont see any need to inform the IR though. At least not until selling for a profit anyway. All depends if you have to fill in a self assessment tax form.

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I like the look of BullionVault because of the low costs but I have question.

Am I right in thinking it is (very nearly) a 'sealed system' - in which gold is traded only between clients of BullionVault?

If so, that could be fine whilst the price is rising and new clients are being recruited BUT what happens at the peak? What if everyone (in this sealed system) is trying to offload gold for cash. Isolated from the global market might the price see a very sudden collapse - greater than the one on the world market.

Looked at from another angle (that of the operators), doesn't it work like this:

1. the operators have some gold in vaults around the world;

2. they allow investors to buy and sell this gold with each other - making (an admittedly small) charge to do so;

3. this generates a lot of income in a bull market.

4. as the peak passes they buy all of it back at knock-down prices - because at that point there are very few buyers among the clients and it is a sealed system.

Maybe the same arguments apply to goldmoney too...

Or have I missed something?

By the way, I don't mean to argue that it isn't worth using now. It may be. I'm just asking a question about the situation a few years from now.

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Gold money is not sealed. I sold some of my holding and they quickly transferred the value to sterling and and paid it into my bank account.

Later on, I re bought gold by sending the money back again.

If you think gold will go up in value by more than 5% per year over the next couple of years then you can use Goldmoney as a savings account. There is no spread on selling, only on buying, so if the price of gold keeps on increasing then it is cost effective.

My fear re Goldmoney is the location of the gold in the UK. I dont know why, but I would rather it was is Switzerland. Somehow I don't trust the integrity of the British State.

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Somehow I don't trust the integrity of the British State.

I hope that you'e not suggesting that Gordon Brown will not be trustworthy once he is both Prime Minister and effectively also still Chancellor? ;)

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With bullionvault am I able to sell my gold at any time at the current spot price?

Sorry if this is a silly question.

(One of the reasons I ask this is because at the moment it is showing a dash (-) under the sell column for the New York vault) Does this mean I can't sell for any price!?

Edited by bert

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BullionVault takes the chance to correct one or two misunderstandings raised in questions and answers on this thread...

Can I always be guaranteed to find a buyer?

The universal answer to this question is "no", in that there is no real guarantee that anything can always be sold. If there is no demand for something you cannot sell it. But gold is the article with the longest and deepest history of marketability on Earth. And on BullionVault you have direct access to the largest wholesale and retail gold markets available on Earth.

Anyone with 400 oz - the smallest amount you can sell on the main bullion markets - can sell through BullionVault to the world's professional market. At the time of writing about 200 large deals have been struck on the main market by BullionVault's private customers. Meanwhile about 2,000 deals a day are struck between BullionVault users (of which there are 12,000 currently active) on retail sums below 400 ounces.

The open access to the main market means BullionVault prices stay close to spot because of natural market forces, not because we make a promise. In our view this makes it safer for you. You are protected by other people acting in their own interest, not by us making a promise. BullionVault sellers who offer liquidity (i.e. quote offer prices) tend to receive slightly above the spot middle price. When they consume liquidity (i.e. accept bid prices) they tend to receive slightly below spot middle.

Markets which guarantee to exit you at the spot price will probably execute on the gold 'fix' - a slightly contrived price which is computed at 3.30pm daily London time. You will almost never get out at the price available when you give your order. Also - of course - a sale on the spot market takes a spread too, but unlike BullionVault it is one which you can never earn.

In summary your liquidity anywhere is only as good as the number of your potential counterparties and their freedom to compete on price. We are convinced that you are far better off with thousands of potential buyers, than with just one, no matter how genuine any promise.

Why was New York not bid when I wanted to sell?

As you can see from BullionVault's Daily Audit New York is not the most popular location. Approximately 1.7% of BullionVault's gold is loco New York, compared to about 24% London and 75% Zurich. This simply reflects customer demand. NY's small size does limit its liquidity. Even then our trading robots are actively bidding and offering at almost all times - certainly above 99% of every day, including weekends. This easily exceeds the availability of a selling price on the spot market, and massively out-guns the 3.30pm gold 'fix' used by our main competitors.

Is BullionVault a sealed system?

No. The amount of gold in BullionVault floats up and down all the time. Several times a day we rebalance our stock by selling or buying whole 400 oz bars in the main market. When customers are accumulating we (or they) are buying on the main market. When they are liquidating we (or they) are selling on the main market. BullionVault provides the buffer zone whereby the inconveniently large 'good delivery' bars of the main market do not restrict free buying and selling of smaller quantities of 'good delivery' gold by private individuals.

Will BullionVault fail in a bear market?

No. BullionVault makes a small amount of money when prices are rising, and a small amount of money when prices are falling. We charge commission. Certainly we think gold is a good investment in bad economic times, but our business model is unconcerned by the direction of the gold price. Our lowest revenue would be likely not in a falling market but in a dull one - one going nowhere and attracting little interest. It is easy to manage costs in dull markets.

As it happens we sell MORE gold in dipping markets. This comes as an enormous surprise to the professionals, who tend to believe that retail investors behave the other way around. We like to think this may be because gold investors are in the upper quartile of sophistication.

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I have used Goldmoney. I have now got about 25% of my savings there. So far they have been very good and straightforward and I like their website and system.

But the gold is in London, unlike Bullionvault which allows you to store it in Switzerland.

Which is best. Goldmoney are in the Channel Islands. Can we trust the UK gov not to get a handle on Goldmoney holdings for tax purposes etc?

Which one did you choose, and why?

Note: I am only interested in comparing the allocated gold systems, not the unallocated ones like GBS

I use both bullionvault and goldmoney. You can store both gold and silver in London or Zurich with goldmoney, which is the reason I use them for silver, because bullionvault does not deal in gold. See under "Why GoldMoney", under secure, on their web site. I actually prefer bullionvault because they are based in the UK, and the bid/offer spread is lower. In fact, on bullionvault, you can alter the bid/offer sprerad so that you can on occasions deal at no bid/offer spread at all, according to Paul Tustain, the director. I have never managed to do this very successfully, and would lke to hear if anyone else has.

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With bullionvault am I able to sell my gold at any time at the current spot price?

Sorry if this is a silly question.

(One of the reasons I ask this is because at the moment it is showing a dash (-) under the sell column for the New York vault) Does this mean I can't sell for any price!?

I have sold gold on bullionvault at 2am, and no problem at all.

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BullionVault takes the chance to correct one or two misunderstandings raised in questions and answers on this thread...

Can I always be guaranteed to find a buyer?

The universal answer to this question is "no", in that there is no real guarantee that anything can always be sold. If there is no demand for something you cannot sell it. But gold is the article with the longest and deepest history of marketability on Earth. And on BullionVault you have direct access to the largest wholesale and retail gold markets available on Earth.

Anyone with 400 oz - the smallest amount you can sell on the main bullion markets - can sell through BullionVault to the world's professional market. At the time of writing about 200 large deals have been struck on the main market by BullionVault's private customers. Meanwhile about 2,000 deals a day are struck between BullionVault users (of which there are 12,000 currently active) on retail sums below 400 ounces.

The open access to the main market means BullionVault prices stay close to spot because of natural market forces, not because we make a promise. In our view this makes it safer for you. You are protected by other people acting in their own interest, not by us making a promise. BullionVault sellers who offer liquidity (i.e. quote offer prices) tend to receive slightly above the spot middle price. When they consume liquidity (i.e. accept bid prices) they tend to receive slightly below spot middle.

Markets which guarantee to exit you at the spot price will probably execute on the gold 'fix' - a slightly contrived price which is computed at 3.30pm daily London time. You will almost never get out at the price available when you give your order. Also - of course - a sale on the spot market takes a spread too, but unlike BullionVault it is one which you can never earn.

In summary your liquidity anywhere is only as good as the number of your potential counterparties and their freedom to compete on price. We are convinced that you are far better off with thousands of potential buyers, than with just one, no matter how genuine any promise.

Why was New York not bid when I wanted to sell?

As you can see from BullionVault's Daily Audit New York is not the most popular location. Approximately 1.7% of BullionVault's gold is loco New York, compared to about 24% London and 75% Zurich. This simply reflects customer demand. NY's small size does limit its liquidity. Even then our trading robots are actively bidding and offering at almost all times - certainly above 99% of every day, including weekends. This easily exceeds the availability of a selling price on the spot market, and massively out-guns the 3.30pm gold 'fix' used by our main competitors.

Is BullionVault a sealed system?

No. The amount of gold in BullionVault floats up and down all the time. Several times a day we rebalance our stock by selling or buying whole 400 oz bars in the main market. When customers are accumulating we (or they) are buying on the main market. When they are liquidating we (or they) are selling on the main market. BullionVault provides the buffer zone whereby the inconveniently large 'good delivery' bars of the main market do not restrict free buying and selling of smaller quantities of 'good delivery' gold by private individuals.

Will BullionVault fail in a bear market?

No. BullionVault makes a small amount of money when prices are rising, and a small amount of money when prices are falling. We charge commission. Certainly we think gold is a good investment in bad economic times, but our business model is unconcerned by the direction of the gold price. Our lowest revenue would be likely not in a falling market but in a dull one - one going nowhere and attracting little interest. It is easy to manage costs in dull markets.

As it happens we sell MORE gold in dipping markets. This comes as an enormous surprise to the professionals, who tend to believe that retail investors behave the other way around. We like to think this may be because gold investors are in the upper quartile of sophistication.

Thank you for your most helpful reply. Am I allowed to ask - are you a representative of bullionvault, of which I am a very happy customer? Housing Bear

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Use whichever one of these outfits you feel happiest with, just remember that you have no realistic prospect of getting your hands on physical gold by this trading method.

If you have a chance to own a "400 oz good delivery bar" you wouldn't trade in paper.

All you can ever expect is your money back. Don't expect gold in your hand.

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I would just add that if you want to take delivery of physical metal - and you aren't loaded - perhaps the best way is to take deliver of a 1000oz silver bar in London. This can be done with goldmoney. I think its costs around 700 GBP and they will deliver the bar to your local bank (or any other official designated location) for you to pick it up. At 9 GBP per oz, you are looking at a price of 9700 GBP (including costs) to get the metal in your hands. This might also be better than taking delivery of a 400oz gold bar in London because of the very real risk of a gold confiscation order coming up the pipes in the UK - I don't see this happening with silver.

In terms of service, I have no issues with either goldmoney or bullionvault (I have metal in both companies). Both of them are the best ways to allocate physical metal in your name with minimal counterparty risk.

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I would just add that if you want to take delivery of physical metal - and you aren't loaded - perhaps the best way is to take deliver of a 1000oz silver bar in London. This can be done with goldmoney. I think its costs around 700 GBP and they will deliver the bar to your local bank (or any other official designated location) for you to pick it up. At 9 GBP per oz, you are looking at a price of 9700 GBP (including costs) to get the metal in your hands.

How do you avoid VAT?

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@ Fortune,

I don't know if you have allowed for VAT on the 1,000 oz bar of silver. Even if VAT is added it is still a very competitive price.

This is about the same price as a 500 gramme gold bar, which you can put in your pocket. (It's about the size of a four finger Kit Kat)

I'm not sure a lump of metal that weighs 6 Kilos more than a sack of potatoes is so convenient. But each to their own.

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I have used Goldmoney. I have now got about 25% of my savings there. So far they have been very good and straightforward and I like their website and system.

But the gold is in London, unlike Bullionvault which allows you to store it in Switzerland.

Which is best. Goldmoney are in the Channel Islands. Can we trust the UK gov not to get a handle on Goldmoney holdings for tax purposes etc?

Which one did you choose, and why?

Note: I am only interested in comparing the allocated gold systems, not the unallocated ones like GBS

I have two concerns.

Firstly, Gold is a massive speculative bubble at the moment, just like Property was until June 2007. It is going to crash at some point. I don't know exactly when, and while it probably will go up further before it goes down, most people don't make money out of bubbles.

Secondly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these online gold investment schemes turned out to be Ponzi schemes. Goldmoney and Bullionvault may well be the legitimate face of online gold trading, but there is bound to be something out there that isn't. Remember that Madoff Securities LLC had impeccable credentials and the likes of Santander were quite happy to put their money there.

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I have two concerns.

Firstly, Gold is a massive speculative bubble at the moment, just like Property was until June 2007. It is going to crash at some point. I don't know exactly when, and while it probably will go up further before it goes down, most people don't make money out of bubbles.

Secondly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these online gold investment schemes turned out to be Ponzi schemes. Goldmoney and Bullionvault may well be the legitimate face of online gold trading, but there is bound to be something out there that isn't. Remember that Madoff Securities LLC had impeccable credentials and the likes of Santander were quite happy to put their money there.

Oh, that old chestnut eh? Like everything else in life, you must do your own due dilligence. The reason why these companies are successful is because they PUBLICALLY AUDIT their operations - fully available and accessible online. If you don't believe me, check it out yourself. Tell me one bank in the UK which does that, that's right tell me one.

Seems to me that PMs are the only game in town. The real question is, what is the alternative to gold? For gold to be in a bubble there is usually some indication that a mania is occuring. I don't see gold on ITV...as yet. Also, would you put your money in a bank or in allocated PM accounts? I know which one I would choose. Besides, is there any other investment on the planet that has gone up every year for the past 8 years.

Don't worry, you will know when gold is in a bubble - trust me.

EDIT: spelling.

Edited by Fortune

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Hi all... quick question for any Goldmoney users, as I'm currently thinking of buying in with some of my STR fund in the current dip.

Is it okay to buy goldgrams from Kitco? As it seems to be cheaper to pick up goldgrams there (by £5 atm), than direct from the GM site, but is there some sort of a catch I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any help....

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I'm finally starting to look at buying some gold.. being pretty new to it, what do you guys do... log onto a website and buy some? Isn't it better to have the 'real stuff' in your possession?

What are the chances it will tank, and what is the long term gain?

Is it all smoke and mirrors? I can't say I know anybody who buys gold... Is this simply another bubble likely to burst?

Edited by thomasross20

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Hi all... quick question for any Goldmoney users, as I'm currently thinking of buying in with some of my STR fund in the current dip.

Is it okay to buy goldgrams from Kitco? As it seems to be cheaper to pick up goldgrams there (by £5 atm), than direct from the GM site, but is there some sort of a catch I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for any help....

Forget about all that Kitco stuff. Just join up and buy some goldgrams. Its not that difficult, really. Anyway you should be doing your own due dilligence before making a serious commitment to gold (i.e. get off your lazy **** and research, research, research). Yes, it is a committment: don't even think about investing in gold unless you are willing to hold for at least a year. Nervous nellies should stay away in cash and jump in on the bandwagon at the later mania stage. And be left holding the bag, just like the BTL plebs who bought at the top in Aug 2007.

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I'm finally starting to look at buying some gold.. being pretty new to it, what do you guys do... log onto a website and buy some? Isn't it better to have the 'real stuff' in your possession?

What are the chances it will tank, and what is the long term gain?

Is it all smoke and mirrors? I can't say I know anybody who buys gold... Is this simply another bubble likely to burst?

Do your own due dilligence. Seach the forums. Check out the mega gold thread. I'm sure you will find the answers you are looking for. Just don't expect to be spoon fed.

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I have two concerns.

Firstly, Gold is a massive speculative bubble at the moment, just like Property was until June 2007. It is going to crash at some point. I don't know exactly when, and while it probably will go up further before it goes down, most people don't make money out of bubbles.

Secondly, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these online gold investment schemes turned out to be Ponzi schemes. Goldmoney and Bullionvault may well be the legitimate face of online gold trading, but there is bound to be something out there that isn't. Remember that Madoff Securities LLC had impeccable credentials and the likes of Santander were quite happy to put their money there.

Speculative bubble could well be right, Gold prices are certainly very volatile and remmber Gold was selling at $850 per ounce in 1980. Like the stock market recently, not a buy and hold job. I reckon just swing trade the volatility and try to get it right at least 2 times out of 3.

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Hi Fortune, thanks for the reply. I have got off my lazy asterisk and done the research, but nowhere could I find anyone commenting about Kitco goldgrams (well one post on a US board which didn't really say much).

Anyhow I get your point... long term... I'm going to buy a house in the fairly near future anyway, likely (heresy!), so was looking at some near-term insurance for the prospect of the pound/UK going pop.

Forget about all that Kitco stuff. Just join up and buy some goldgrams. Its not that difficult, really. Anyway you should be doing your own due dilligence before making a serious commitment to gold (i.e. get off your lazy **** and research, research, research). Yes, it is a committment: don't even think about investing in gold unless you are willing to hold for at least a year. Nervous nellies should stay away in cash and jump in on the bandwagon at the later mania stage. And be left holding the bag, just like the BTL plebs who bought at the top in Aug 2007.

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I'm finally starting to look at buying some gold.. being pretty new to it, what do you guys do... log onto a website and buy some? Isn't it better to have the 'real stuff' in your possession?

What are the chances it will tank, and what is the long term gain?

Is it all smoke and mirrors? I can't say I know anybody who buys gold... Is this simply another bubble likely to burst?

imo if you are thinking of storing some of your liquid worth in gold you should have a core central position in bullion. Following that registering and funding an account at goldmoney.com is a very simple process. The bullion ia allocated and audited. You can also hold your funds in a variety of currencies at goldmoney, whether paper or metal.

A big advantage with goldmoney is the convenience of being able to sell a percentage of metal at the spike and buy again on the dip. Can be very lucrative if you are patient enough and get the timing right. Gold is in a bull market but will be extremely volatile as the market runs from inflationary expectations to deflationary ones and back again.

Edited by roman holiday

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Of the two I would probably go for Bullionvault because its website seems better at explaining everything. And you CAN see that your gold is actually there. But I am still not clear about selling. Can you only sell to other members, not on the open market? That seems a bit unfair. For example, when I want to sell foreign currency in my bank account, I get a quote from their dealings department, who operate on the forex market. But the selling market is obviously going to be much smaller if you can only do it "internally."

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