Those That Ignored Uk B2l In The 1990s......

[dogbox]

Many pessimists thought UK B2L was mupperty in the 1990s. They were wrong.

Now the same pessimists are following the same pattern when it comes to investing in Europe.

The pessimists 'to a Man' say they are'nt life - long perma bears but this pattern of behavior reveals the opposite.

Consider these 2 points;

1.) Pessimists generally say they are only temporarily bearish and will SURELY become bullish when the UK trough comes, yet right now many parts of Europe are in a trough or at the beggining of growth and they STILL FIND REASONS TO ABSTAIN

2.) A favorite bear mantra is 'B2L was all luck, just people in right place at right time'.

Can I ask the perma - bears to stop citing reasons for not investing in Europe as 'logical', and instead just admit they lack the confidence to take a risk?

Edited January 6, 2006 by dogbox

[dogbox]

Coz there's better, less risky returns to be had elsewhere?

Honestly dogbox, you need to learn a few more tricks, else you'll be a 'one-trick pony' for the rest of your days...

I invest in the SM and my own business. I like tec shares.

But what are the 'better' investments you have in mind?

[Mrliberty]

"Can I ask the perma - bears to stop citing reasons for not investing in Europe as 'logical', and instead just admit they lack the confidence to take a risk? "

As long as there are no resource shortages, like natural gas, for instance. Former warsaw pact countries will be bottom of the que if there is, as you can bet the older EU countries will assure their own supplies at a cost to others???

[lookingafterthekids]

I invest in the SM and my own business. I like tec shares.

But what are the 'better' investments you have in mind?

Time with the kids?

[MarkG]

Coz there's better, less risky returns to be had elsewhere?

Indeed. Why would I faff around with renting out flats when I've made over 50% in tech stocks in the last six months?

[Leodhasach]

Maybe some people have a moral problem with helping to price Latvians, Bulgarians etc out of their own country, just to make an essentially effort-free buck? Just a thought...

[AgeingBabyBoomer]

Perhaps you are assuming that everbody here is interested in

property investing.

One or two might just be interested in owning a home.

Living in europe and working in the UK is, well, a bit of a commute

ABB

[MarkG]

Maybe some people have a moral problem with helping to price Latvians, Bulgarians etc out of their own country, just to make an essentially effort-free buck?

That too. Having been screwed over by 'property investors' in the UK, there's no way I'd sink to doing the same to poor bloody foreigners... the only way I'll buy a property abroad is when I plan to live there.

[dogbox]

Maybe some people have a moral problem with helping to price Latvians, Bulgarians etc out of their own country, just to make an essentially effort-free buck? Just a thought...

The World Bank cites foreign real estate investment as the key driver for many emmerging economies. 1 minute a farmer is scratching a subsistence living, the next he's been handed a life changing sum so his kids can afford a decent education and the rest is history.

To Mark (I think) Im also well into tech shares, but I view then as far more risky and volatile despite recent gains, so some money into a Euro property is a must looking over 5 years.

Someone said 'time with kids'. My main priority in life, thats why I want to be able to stop working in 5 - 10 years so I can have even more time with them and enjoy life.

[bubbleturbo]

Dogbox,

Have you considered the fact that if we are coming into the downslope of a global housing boom? If we are going into a global housing BUST, hand in hand with that, it could be the end of very low interest rates for some time to come.

If so, the upswing, even in Eastern Europe, Germany, etc, may not be as great as you think.

Just a thought.

[dogbox]

Perhaps you are assuming that everbody here is interested in

property investing.

One or two might just be interested in owning a home.

Living in europe and working in the UK is, well, a bit of a commute

ABB

The point is many bears since I joined have said 'B2L was all just luck'.

What I am trying to illustrate is that luck is only available to those willing to take the plunge.

In other words a main bearish plank (the luck argument) in the argument against UK B2L is actually baseless. Confidence not luck is what it takes.

I describe many bears as 'perma bears' which they vigourously refute. Those same people face with a gaping opportunity in Euro land are again proving themselves to be permabears, but hiding behind other arguments for not investing.

Dogbox,

Have you considered the fact that if we are coming into the downslope of a global housing boom? If we are going into a global housing BUST, hand in hand with that, it could be the end of very low interest rates for some time to come.

If so, the upswing, even in Eastern Europe, Germany, etc, may not be as great as you think.

Just a thought.

No, I think money is migrating to cheaper investment entry points. Germany is far far cheaper than Ireland yet is the 3rd biggest economic power and the worlds biggest exporter. Do u really think this situation will persist? I dont.

Its all about perception.

ASK YOURSELF THIS - . Its 1995 I advise you all to go invest in Ireland. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID?

[RichM]

ASK YOURSELF THIS - . Its 1995 I advise you all to go invest in Ireland. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID?

F**k off I'm doing my GCSEs. I'd like to get straight A's. Did you see Red Dwarf last night, it's well funny?

Sir, sire there's creepy man trying to get me to buy flats in Ireland, call the police...

[Guest magnoliawalls]

ASK YOURSELF THIS - . Its 1995 I advise you all to go invest in Ireland. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID?

If you seemed to be under the impression that the Republic of Ireland was part of the UK, I would take your investment advice with a pinch of salt...

Though in 1995 I was 15 and missed the opportunity.

14% of Irish own abroad and thats expected to rocket. The rest of the UK is catching up.

A SERIOUS PREDICTION I WANT YOU ALL TO REMEMBER;

I guarantee you that investing abroad in THE new way to make money and in 5 years will be huge business.

Demand is immense.

[2005]

The point is many bears since I joined have said 'B2L was all just luck'.

What I am trying to illustrate is that luck is only available to those willing to take the plunge.

I agree with you that investing in property in the 1990's took confidence and risk taking. I have nothing against people being rewarded for this.

But you must also accept that some luck was involved. You were lucky that at a time when property was undervalued (relative to now) that you were an adult, financially solvent and in a position to take those risks.

Many young first time buyers who are now priced out of the property market were still in school in the mid 1990's. Many others were not in a position to invest in property/buy a home even if they wanted to ....to suggest that the current situation for them is one of a lack of confidence or risk taking is a little unfair don't you think?

[dogbox]

F**k off I'm doing my GCSEs. I'd like to get straight A's. Did you see Red Dwarf last night, it's well funny?

Sir, sire there's creepy man trying to get me to buy flats in Ireland, call the police...

Very good

The point is, similar bearish arguments / posturing was given of B2L in the 1990s. Ay first only a trickle of people involved - they were the ones who made the real money.

So for those that claim they are not permabears, and they like investing, I cant see why they are dismissing Euro property. It must be that they really are as Ive always said perma - bears.

I agree with you that investing in property in the 1990's took confidence and risk taking. I have nothing against people being rewarded for this.

But you must also accept that some luck was involved. You were lucky that at a time when property was undervalued (relative to now) that you were an adult, financially solvent and in a position to take those risks.

Many young first time buyers who are now priced out of the property market were still in school in the mid 1990's. Many others were not in a position to invest in property/buy a home even if they wanted to ....to suggest that the current situation for them is one of a lack of confidence or risk taking is a little unfair don't you think?

I agree with all you say.

My argument is'nt aimed at those that couldnt buy, its aimed at the army of bitter permabears that dont realise they are permabears even when its staring them in the face.

They chose to ignore UK B2L thinking they had superior insight. They are now CHOOSING to dismiss EURO INVESTING s more folly.

Fair enough if you dont want to invest on moral grounds though.

Edited January 6, 2006 by dogbox

[Leodhasach]

1 minute a farmer is scratching a subsistence living, the next he's been handed a life changing sum so his kids can afford a decent education and the rest is history.

Exactly - where are other Latvians or Bulgarians going to get a "life-changing sum" from to buy a home in their own country? That farmer's going to need his "life-changing sum" to buy his next house anyway! So a few individuals in a country might be better off, but the country as a whole? Following your logic, it would be good for the UK if we all had Chinese landlords paying each other vast amounts to exchange houses for letting to Britons.

[dom]

Many pessimists thought UK B2L was mupperty in the 1990s. They were wrong.

Now the same pessimists are following the same pattern when it comes to investing in Europe.

The pessimists 'to a Man' say they are'nt life - long perma bears but this pattern of behavior reveals the opposite.

Consider these 2 points;

1.) Pessimists generally say they are only temporarily bearish and will SURELY become bullish when the UK trough comes, yet right now many parts of Europe are in a trough or at the beggining of growth and they STILL FIND REASONS TO ABSTAIN

2.) A favorite bear mantra is 'B2L was all luck, just people in right place at right time'.

Can I ask the perma - bears to stop citing reasons for not investing in Europe as 'logical', and instead just admit they lack the confidence to take a risk?

Is the above based on the fact you've invested in German property recently?

IMO it will be a very good investment for you.

However, allow me to be the voice of social conscience. Investing in B2L and property does not generate real wealth, it generates real debt, and loads of it.

Since leaving the forest, mankind has innovated tools and gained knowledge with which to assist his existence and ease suffering.

It is knowledge and creative innovation which produces wealth, and has made the luxury we take for granted almost unremarkable.

B2L and the recent property 'renaissance' is IMO nothing more than the advance of modern 'ME' culture, it has no value and benefits those who view their society as something to be exploited.

Good luck

[BoredTrainBuilder]

Maybe some people have a moral problem with helping to price Latvians, Bulgarians etc out of their own country, just to make an essentially effort-free buck? Just a thought...

Please explain how a lawful transaction, freely entered-into by both parties, can possibly be immoral?

Edited January 6, 2006 by BoredTrainBuilder

[MarkG]

Please explain how a lawful transaction, freely entered-into by both parties, can possibly be immoral?

So when slavery was legal, buying and selling slaves was a perfectly morally acceptable act? After all, the contract was between buyer and seller, the slave's opinion was irrelevant.

Hint: legal != moral... (and illegal != immoral, for that matter)

Edited January 6, 2006 by MarkG

[Leodhasach]

Please explain how a lawful transaction, freely entered-into by both parties, can possibly be immoral?

Because that transaction will affect the lives of others not involved in the transaction. Lawful and moral are very different things!

[Bear Goggles]

ASK YOURSELF THIS - . Its 1995 I advise you all to go invest in Ireland. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID?

I too would have said. "I'm at college, how can I invest in property?" Back in 1995 you couldn't get a mortgage when your 'income' was a student loan. You probably can now.

Dispite my forum name I am pretty bullish, just not about property. If you look in the investment in general forum you'll find much more bullish sentiment. This is a property forum so you'll find bearish sentiment.

You seem obsessed with the idea that everyone here is somehow feeling sorry for themselves and wishing they'd had your insight into property's investment portential in 1995. But most people here are either too young to have invested in property in 1995 or have STR'd in which case they probably did buy in or around 1995.

I think your ego is getting the better of you!

Edited January 6, 2006 by Bear Goggles

[sign_of_the_times]

so doggy, if its such a sure thing, how many hundreds of acres have you bought ?

[BoredTrainBuilder]

'Leodhasach' & 'MarkG'

Thanks for your prompt responses.

Citizens have a duty to ensure, via the democractic process (or whatever) that their laws reflect their societal morality. That having been done, private participants in a lawful transaction cannot possibly be held immoral. Of course, people are entitled to adhere to their own versions of morality whereas the law ought to be universal.

I think that's the problem here: you'd like the state to impose your own personal moralities on everyone else.

[Duplex]

This report comes from the Property Secretes web site on the heavily bought Bulgarian market.

Bulgaria is a country that is being promoted very heavily and sales of off-plan apartments are strong.

However, there is no evidence yet that these apartments can either be re-sold or that they can be effectively let.

Hence, the rental prospects for Bulgarian holiday property are poor and the exit strategy (ie who will buy your newly built off plan apartment) is non-existent

Bulgaria also has a short summer season compounding rental problems and this means that investors are focusing on the declining holiday market and missing out on the growing winter rentals that are developing rapidly in warmer locations.

If you want to spend all your summers in Bulgaria - great! If not, then avoid.

Another property investment sap trap carefully laid for the credulous, by the cynical.

ooooh me bulgars !!

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

I would say though, that dogbox's tip to invest in Berlin property now is right on the money.

Eastern Europe though ... risky. Remember the exit strategy. The previous post about Bulgaria says it all.