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Trampa501

Earning Less Than Minimum Wage

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I've seen this in London and not just in the courier business. The employees are working on a self-employed basis, so legally it's ok to pay less than the minimum wage... Seems to happen a lot (from their job adverts) in hairdressing/nail salons, where the practitioner hires a seat. At least in those scenarios they can build up customer base and earn some tips. My guess (and it's just a guess, albeit one reinforced by anecdotal evidence) is that a lot of restaurant and fast food service staff are paid less than the minimum wage.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/18/hermes-couriers-paying-staff-less-than-living-wage

In common with several delivery firms serving the internet shopping boom, Hermes does not need to pay its couriers the £7.20 an hour living wage introduced in April because they are self-employed. The arrangement is legal and is approved by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

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I was told by someone that she was only offered 8 hours at a cheappy booze shop because the owner wanted you to claim to be s/e for tax reasons...

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Someone I know has just started a job in an oap home. Nat minimum wage but has to go in on each shift an hour early for handover. This hour, as it is 'not work' is not paid

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My son works for a security firm. Mostly he guards a castle, farm and estate and is expected to stay 24 hours a day for up to seven days in a row. He's paid only for 16 hours which brings his hourly rate from £8 per hour to £5.33. He won't complain, though, as taking them to tribunal or prosecuting them (it's a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage) would only mean the firm would fold and he and his colleagues would lose their jobs.

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My son works for a security firm. Mostly he guards a castle, farm and estate and is expected to stay 24 hours a day for up to seven days in a row. He's paid only for 16 hours which brings his hourly rate from £8 per hour to £5.33. He won't complain, though, as taking them to tribunal or prosecuting them (it's a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage) would only mean the firm would fold and he and his colleagues would lose their jobs.

Before the minimum wage was introduced, security jobs were notorious for paying low hourly rates (I seem to remember £2 or £2.50 being common). Yet they still got people willing to do it, as the long shifts were apparently a "doddle". Even with a good book it would have sent me crazy I suspect.

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Care workers?

1) Lack of qualifications

2) Flexible working hours

3) A desire to 'help people'

4) Low Self Esteem

P

Or, work in an area of high unemployment and have few alternatives

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My son works for a security firm. Mostly he guards a castle, farm and estate and is expected to stay 24 hours a day for up to seven days in a row. He's paid only for 16 hours which brings his hourly rate from £8 per hour to £5.33. He won't complain, though, as taking them to tribunal or prosecuting them (it's a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage) would only mean the firm would fold and he and his colleagues would lose their jobs.

I had one of these jobs. 16 hours per week £10-12k per annum and a grace and flavours flat within a stately home. What they didn't make clear though was that they expected me to be in the flat or radio range of the main house for 23 hours a day, 5 days a week. I didn't last long and I can understand why the previous 'security' smoked like a chimney and stank the flat out.

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Globalisation has pushed the market rates for labour to very low levels. The minimum wage masks this to some extent but the truth is revealed by large scale unemployment and people earning pitiful amounts of money in the black economy.

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Before the minimum wage was introduced, security jobs were notorious for paying low hourly rates (I seem to remember £2 or £2.50 being common). Yet they still got people willing to do it, as the long shifts were apparently a "doddle". Even with a good book it would have sent me crazy I suspect.

At university (late 80s / early 90s) I had a night security job guarding a sprawling IBM facility somewhere in West London. It was perfect. I could sleep, read, do coursework. Help the delivery guys bringing stores to the canteen - and they'd give me a kickback of food. There was a workshop where I could fiddle with my motorbike.

I was supposed to do an hourly patrol and log in with a handheld device to various checkpoints around the site. However, I found that the device could easily be fooled with a magnet. This saved a lot of legwork.

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I was told by someone that she was only offered 8 hours at a cheappy booze shop because the owner wanted you to claim to be s/e for tax reasons...

These workrounds are a symptom that the minimum wage is either too high or is a flawed exercise in national virtue signalling.

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Before the minimum wage was introduced, security jobs were notorious for paying low hourly rates (I seem to remember £2 or £2.50 being common). Yet they still got people willing to do it, as the long shifts were apparently a "doddle". Even with a good book it would have sent me crazy I suspect.

Brian does it with our two dogs, a gaming laptop and his kindle. He does patrol the place at two hourly intervals throughout the day and night. He's too intelligent for the job but wants a quiet life after 13 years in the army.

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My son works for a security firm. Mostly he guards a castle, farm and estate and is expected to stay 24 hours a day for up to seven days in a row. He's paid only for 16 hours which brings his hourly rate from £8 per hour to £5.33. He won't complain, though, as taking them to tribunal or prosecuting them (it's a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage) would only mean the firm would fold and he and his colleagues would lose their jobs.

That firm is in breach of the law in more ways than one.

If they cannot afford to pay minimum wage for actual hours worked (and there is a section which deals with being on call) then they are defacto insolvent.

It is illegal for a firm to trade whilst knowingly insolvent....

some smartarses will be along soon to mention the banks..... B)

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That firm is in breach of the law in more ways than one.

If they cannot afford to pay minimum wage for actual hours worked (and there is a section which deals with being on call) then they are defacto insolvent.

It is illegal for a firm to trade whilst knowingly insolvent....

some smartarses will be along soon to mention the banks..... B)

Thank you for that interesting insight. I'll store it at the back of my mind till the opportunity arises to drop it into conversation with his boss...

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My son works for a security firm. Mostly he guards a castle, farm and estate and is expected to stay 24 hours a day for up to seven days in a row. He's paid only for 16 hours which brings his hourly rate from £8 per hour to £5.33. He won't complain, though, as taking them to tribunal or prosecuting them (it's a criminal offence to pay less than the minimum wage) would only mean the firm would fold and he and his colleagues would lose their jobs.

I'm sure this firm exists, and you didn't fabricate it in order to make a point at all...

If an employer can't afford to pay at least the minimum then they don't have a viable business.

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I'm sure this firm exists, and you didn't fabricate it in order to make a point at all...

If an employer can't afford to pay at least the minimum then they don't have a viable business.

It exists. You're forgetting the Isle of Wight factor.

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When they live on the Isle of Wight, not much is available.

Something for everyone to think about the next time they unload both barrels into hate du jour

Cos the next question is why don't he move somewhere with better jobs?

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I'm sure this firm exists, and you didn't fabricate it in order to make a point at all...

If an employer can't afford to pay at least the minimum then they don't have a viable business.

Lots of businesses become viable when labour costs fall close to zero, hence the booming British economy!

It's worth noting that businesses will pay what they can get away with. A particular business might be able to pay higher wages but if it doesn't need to then why would it? The first priority of a business is to its shareholders.

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Before the minimum wage was introduced, security jobs were notorious for paying low hourly rates (I seem to remember £2 or £2.50 being common). Yet they still got people willing to do it, as the long shifts were apparently a "doddle". Even with a good book it would have sent me crazy I suspect.

Just before the minimum wage was introduced, a friend of mine was getting paid 90p per hour while working for a shop. Even then that was ridiculously low money.

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Best part of 15 years ago I was paying forklift drivers £7.70 per hour and machine minders at least £13 per hour.

I believe forklift drivers still get the same. It wouldn't surprise me if machine minders actually now got less. That's progress for you.

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Someone I know has just started a job in an oap home. Nat minimum wage but has to go in on each shift an hour early for handover. This hour, as it is 'not work' is not paid

There was a similar case where a lady on R4 was driving around in her own time from care visit to care visit and the company argued this wasn't "working time".

She won. Quite a lot in back payments.

S/he could do with something on paper, they might still have a case if s/he keeps a log of all the additional hours and statements from other staff that these hours are mandatory under threat of dismissal.

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