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Fairyland

Welfare Changes Vs Brexit

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Lot of debate in different threads rooted down to welfare and brexit so I thought of starting a new thread to keep all discussions under single thread.

Should the welfare system be changed so that non UK citizens have no recourse to public funds unless they earn/have paid over a certain threshold and ignore brexit referendum/not trigger article 50

OR

Should we trigger article 50 immediately, stop all EU migration and later on negotiate a separate visa system on each country basis similar to non EU migrants.

Please discuss.

Edited by Fairyland

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In an ideal world:-

  • end tax credits
  • recourse to public funds would be entirely based on how much you've net contributed to the system. One exception being disability benefits
  • points system for EU and non-EU alike - a one-tier immigration system

At the moment we have a free buffet of benefits - anyone can rock up with their plate and take from the tax payer - who is net borrowing £8Bn+ a month.

Furthermore, our infrastructure isn't keeping up with the population growth.

Absolutely unsustainable.

Edited by canbuywontbuy

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In work benefits not really any better when given to UK nationals as they are if given to immigrants.

No matter who gets em, they encourage business to create of a lot of under paid part time work.

I'm very torn on this, as I at least think of myself as a lefty and think people do need support to achieve a minimum level of living, if there aren't the jobs to provide that. But I'm not sure how we can get out of the mess of the enormous cost of tax credits without destroying lives.

Hopefully the increases in minimum wage will put the burden be ck on business, and they'll begin to move back to more full time roles as the pay gap between full and part time closes a bit... That's if this new government pushes ahead with those changes I guess

So, in answer to your question, I think welfare - tax credits specifically - need to be changed regardless of brexit

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In work benefits not really any better when given to UK nationals as they are if given to immigrants.

No matter who gets em, they encourage business to create of a lot of under paid part time work.

I'm very torn on this, as I at least think of myself as a lefty and think people do need support to achieve a minimum level of living, if there aren't the jobs to provide that. But I'm not sure how we can get out of the mess of the enormous cost of tax credits without destroying lives.

Hopefully the increases in minimum wage will put the burden be ck on business, and they'll begin to move back to more full time roles as the pay gap between full and part time closes a bit... That's if this new government pushes ahead with those changes I guess

So, in answer to your question, I think welfare - tax credits specifically - need to be changed regardless of brexit

Work needs to pay and people need to work.

tax credits support the company in paying low wages.

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Fair points here about ending tax credits and work paying living wages. Considering HP and HPI, what should the realistic living wage to have a decent life, both, in and out of London?

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I don't think we can treat anyone living and working in the UK as second class citizens so we must be in a position to control who comes here to live and work in the first place- it's the fairest way to deal with the problem of limited resources.

The idea that we might let people in because we need cheap labour but then treat those we let in as some kind of underclass is far more offensive than simply imposing outright limits on who gets to come in the first place.

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Haven't we got enough of our own that can fill those cheap labour roles? There's probabley enough on benefits that can work but won't work. We need a re-allocation of existing human resources, instead of importing them.

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Fair points here about ending tax credits and work paying living wages. Considering HP and HPI, what should the realistic living wage to have a decent life, both, in and out of London?

I'm on the government's national minimumliving wage nowadays. It is about right for my actual living costs in a cheap part of the country (Devon), without being unduly frugal.

If it were all I had, I think I'd live somewhere cheaper than a 3-bed house for the one of me, so I'd have some money to spare from the minimum wage.

As for benefits, it has long suited governments to keep the system broken and blame the EU for consequences that may in fact have very little to do with the benefits system. Brexit changes the politics of blame, but it's not at all clear that it'll do anything more.

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Haven't we got enough of our own that can fill those cheap labour roles? There's probabley enough on benefits that can work but won't work. We need a re-allocation of existing human resources, instead of importing them.

Can't really blame them when you may lose a lot more in benefits than you gain in earned income. Fix the benefits system!

(I don't know if IDS's reforms actually improved anything since I was last in real poverty back in 2003. So the above might be out of date).

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I don't think we can treat anyone living and working in the UK as second class citizens so we must be in a position to control who comes here to live and work in the first place- it's the fairest way to deal with the problem of limited resources.

The idea that we might let people in because we need cheap labour but then treat those we let in as some kind of underclass is far more offensive than simply imposing outright limits on who gets to come in the first place.

Yes, prevention is better than cure. Do you think a points based immigration system will help?

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There are disabled people (like myself) who would like a job but are unable to work full time. We could ask employers to open up more jobs as job shares.

At the moment there are large numbers competing for a few part time jobs. If I apply for a part time job in my area I rarely get a call back even if I have great qualifications for the role.

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Can't really blame them when you may lose a lot more in benefits than you gain in earned income. Fix the benefits system!

(I don't know if IDS's reforms actually improved anything since I was last in real poverty back in 2003. So the above might be out of date).

Unfortunately, this may be a reality for many people. Once, on the London suburb bus,I overheard two young mums talking about going back to work - 'Work wouldn't even cover my child care cost', 'Rent, Without HB I can't afford my rent and council tax'. 'School meals, uniform, prescriptions for long term illness all costs just add up'.

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There is a thread that discusses all these things under one thread.

No. The threads cover TC as a lump.

This makes snese as I would bet on removal of benefits to EUers being on the cards.

I read this earlier today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36796999

Evasive bit of text:

'The increase has been driven by a rising birth rate - and the analysis says this reflects an increasing number of non-UK born mothers, who tend to have bigger families.

The forecast says "direct immigration of pupils" has had only a very small effect.'

Soo.. there's not a lot of kids being brough over to the UK from whateverland.

True. I know few kids who were born abroad.

But that non-UK born (doesnt break it down to migrants, rather tnan non-UK citizens) are popping kids out like crazy.

The anaylisis points to most of the extra 750K being migrants.

DoE tracks UK national birht rates and plans for it.

It did not or could not plan for ~3m EE turning up to claim tax credits.

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Yes, prevention is better than cure. Do you think a points based immigration system will help?

Work permit.

Earnings threshold over > 40k.

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I certainly think we need to get back to the original concept: that is, national INSURANCE. That is, people who have paid the insurance premiums (NICs) get the most generous out-of-work benefits. The distinction between contributors and non-contributors needs strengthening, not getting rid of.

Points based immigration: the devil will be in the detail. Willing to live 10 to a caravan and pick leeks for minimum wage? "YES", great you've won enough points, the train to Boston is that way. It all depends how it is applied.

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I'd like to see a change to the way renter / savers are treated as having "savings" when mean testing benefits vs owners who don't have cash in the bank (as they are not saving for a deposit).

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I certainly think we need to get back to the original concept: that is, national INSURANCE. That is, people who have paid the insurance premiums (NICs) get the most generous out-of-work benefits. The distinction between contributors and non-contributors needs strengthening, not getting rid of.

Given that benefits are higher for "needs" than for contributions, just getting rid of that distinction would be a start!

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They should just shut the benefits department down. No Benefits unless genuinly dsabled, blind or whatever.

The country would be empty, you could probably have two houses each .

no need for this HPC site.

What a brilliant suggestion

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I certainly think we need to get back to the original concept: that is, national INSURANCE. That is, people who have paid the insurance premiums (NICs) get the most generous out-of-work benefits. The distinction between contributors and non-contributors needs strengthening, not getting rid of.

Agreed, and: there should no in-work benefits.

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They should just shut the benefits department down. No Benefits unless genuinly dsabled, blind or whatever.

The country would be empty, you could probably have two houses each .

no need for this HPC site.

What a brilliant suggestion

Damn, can anyone dig up the clip where Sir Humphrey, thinking himself off-mike, tells a BBC interviewer something a little bit like that, but of course much better-reasoned?

Edited by porca misèria

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Damn, can anyone dig up the clip where Sir Humphrey, thinking himself off-mike, tells a BBC interviewer something a little bit like that, but of course much better-reasoned?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tangled_Web

Afterwards, they continue to chat off the record, and Kennedy asks him why he couldn't have said more about unemployment. Sir Humphrey now obliges him and gives a full and frank personal opinion on how joblessness could be halved by cutting benefits and compelling the 'so-called' unemployed to accept offers of work, thereby removing them from the register "before you could say 'parasite'." However, the interview tape is still running…

:)

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I'm not sure why so many seem to want to both restrict immigration and access to benefits? Surely one or the other would suffice?

I don't like working tax credits nor housing benefit, the former is a subsidy to either businesses that don't need it or to zombies. Housing benefit we all know is further unearned wealth to rentiers. So get rid of them (there's the bigger problem of automation but that's for another thread where the answer is a citizen's income and perhaps LVT). But then, why does immigration need to be restricted? I just can't see piles of EU immigrants coming over if businesses don't create loads of unnecessary part time jobs and the ones who do will be fully paying their way.

One thing I can't work out is the reluctance to delay the eligibility for those kind of benefits to immigrants? There's precedence for it on the continent and it doesn't seem to be particularly regressive so why the reluctance from the left?

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"restricted" is not the most accurate word - it implies a harsh very low limit.

What we have now is "mass uncontrolled" immigration.

What we should have is "controlled" immigration. So it should be "controlled".

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What do other European countries do?.......I am almost sure unless you have contributed into the system you do not get benefits from the system, maybe that might be one reason why certain people choose certain places to live?

Ideally most full time working people should not be put into the position that they require state benefits....a full time working week should provide a living wage in the area where they work.....the question we should be asking is why some places can provide living wage jobs and other places can't......rich areas are subsidised and therefore become richer off the backs of greater numbers of poorer people, people that do not get paid enough to pay the local rents, travel,eat and heat. ;)

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