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I don't think it is related to how much tax they pay. Do you believe the more money the government throws at something, the better that thing is?

Privatisation, and not the crony capitalist half arsed version we have with the rails today.

Have they ever not been shambolic and collapsing?

Logic and facts are no match for cherished ideological beliefs. Are you the guy posting as "libertas"?

The fewer resources there are to produce X the less will be produced.  Like a bakery cannot produce more bread with less flour. We've been starving the public sector of resources. Privatisation - for public goods? Economics 101 - it doesn't work because of the free-rider problem and other sources of market failure. Where in the world does your fully privatised economy exist with good public services?

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I wouldn't mind paying lots of tax to get good public services.

I do object paying tax so others can live in housing I cannot afford.  I remember someone on benefits once telling me that she wouldn't live where I live. 

 

France is a very bad example - they pay lots of tax but lots of them come here so it is obviously not creating a country better to live in than the UK.  Or maybe they like our food or weather or cricket or rugby league?

The French are famous for thinking our food is better than theirs.  Or is it the reverse?

The best way for Labour to get in - with regarding to taxes - is to announce that they will keep the benefit cap.

The Tories did not win my vote - the other parties lost it!

 

not very convincing to carp about one member of a list.

Lots of our people live over there, does it show it's better for business over there?

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not very convincing to carp about one member of a list.

Lots of our people live over there, does it show it's better for business over there?

Good point that lots of Brits live in France.

However my main point is that, before we raise taxes to get better public service, stop spending money to give people housing others I can't afford.

 

 

The fewer resources there are to produce X the less will be produced.

Vehicles in the US have been getting more efficient over the last 50 years.

So you can get the same amount of X with less resources

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2011/04/20/driving-to-545-mpg-the-history-of-fuel-economy

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Northern European countries have a strong Social Contract - you pay in more and you are protected when you need it.  The UK would benefit from a a secondary, contributions based, welfare system (6 months higher Job Seekers / UC if you paid in for at least 5 years etc).  It was tried with SERPs, but the private pensions wailed because they couldn't compete.

There is no social contract in the UK. The average Norwegian/Swede/German/French is no more altruistic than the average British. The difference is that in Europe they know that the social safety net will be there for them when they need it. It's easy to accept paying high taxes when you remember your free university education, and can see that your children will have it too. It's easy to accept high taxes when you know that if you lose your job you will have fair unemployment payouts, rather than £78 pw job seekers allowance no matter how much you have paid in. It is easy to accept high taxes when you know that if you are ill you can see a doctor easily, rather than being given an appointment in six months. Repeat for anything you can think that the government is involved in - railway ticket pricing, rubbish collection, dealing with crime. 

In all honesty, the average middle class British person (the backbone of the economy) receives nothing from the government, from leaving state education at 18 until whatever miserly inflated away means tested state pension they will receive at aged 70. They have no way of hiding taxes as they pay through PAYE. Why would they care about the so-called social contract?

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58 minutes ago, A17 said:

There is no social contract in the UK. The average Norwegian/Swede/German/French is no more altruistic than the average British. The difference is that in Europe they know that the social safety net will be there for them when they need it. It's easy to accept paying high taxes when you remember your free university education, and can see that your children will have it too. It's easy to accept high taxes when you know that if you lose your job you will have fair unemployment payouts, rather than £78 pw job seekers allowance no matter how much you have paid in. It is easy to accept high taxes when you know that if you are ill you can see a doctor easily, rather than being given an appointment in six months. Repeat for anything you can think that the government is involved in - railway ticket pricing, rubbish collection, dealing with crime. 

In all honesty, the average middle class British person (the backbone of the economy) receives nothing from the government, from leaving state education at 18 until whatever miserly inflated away means tested state pension they will receive at aged 70. They have no way of hiding taxes as they pay through PAYE. Why would they care about the so-called social contract?

Very true.  

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Are you seriously unable to imagine a scenario where this is not true?

Are you seriously suggesting it is possible to any significant extent? In the real world more bread requires more flour. Try thinking it through in relation to any bread recipe. It's a consequence of mass balance, implied by the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get something from nothing.

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Good point that lots of Brits live in France.

However my main point is that, before we raise taxes to get better public service, stop spending money to give people housing others I can't afford.

Vehicles in the US have been getting more efficient over the last 50 years.

So you can get the same amount of X with less resources

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2011/04/20/driving-to-545-mpg-the-history-of-fuel-economy

Not with given technology you can't, and this kind of example is specific to transformation of materials / energy transformation. In any case efficiency improvements are bounded at 100% efficiency, whichever efficiency concept you are dealing with. Public sector has been asked to make efficiency savings for decades. They are already operating on a shoestring. In reality when you reduce resources year on year you reduce production. 

I don;t know what kind of job you have but imagine you run a department where your resources are cut by say 25%. Are you going to provide the same level of service next year? If you've been making efficiency savings for the previous 10 years? Get real.

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27 minutes ago, nickb1 said:

Not with given technology you can't, and this kind of example is specific to transformation of materials / energy transformation. In any case efficiency improvements are bounded at 100% efficiency, whichever efficiency concept you are dealing with. Public sector has been asked to make efficiency savings for decades. They are already operating on a shoestring. In reality when you reduce resources year on year you reduce production. 

I don;t know what kind of job you have but imagine you run a department where your resources are cut by say 25%. Are you going to provide the same level of service next year? If you've been making efficiency savings for the previous 10 years? Get real.

I think that is true for some public services.  However from the point of the tax payer, reduce the benefit cap and use the money for public sector services.

Some public services still should be cut back though.  Apparently bees are doing better this year because roadside verges have been cut less - well stop spending our money harming wildlife

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/coronavirus-lockdown-wildflowers-bees-rewilding-council-verges-mowing-a9458291.html

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Not with given technology you can't, and this kind of example is specific to transformation of materials / energy transformation. In any case efficiency improvements are bounded at 100% efficiency, whichever efficiency concept you are dealing with. Public sector has been asked to make efficiency savings for decades.

And it hasn't made these savings.  The public sector is massively inefficient.  Are you a public sector union rep by any chance?

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if the teaching is online I don't know what they want a refund for. It actually takes far more time to generate an online lecture, than to do an old style turn up and talk for an hour in person thing. At least if you make a proper effort to make something useful (which most people I know are). Thats mainly because nothing exists yet though - presumably next year a lot of the stuff will be reused and hence the difference goes away. But right now it is a lot more work than usual to do it that way.

This 100 times.

Apart from the pre-recording of lectures, all the extra effort to schedule in-person as well as online tutorials (these being small groups), to add activities to increase engagement, admin staff less available to help with the donkey work.  It's a bit annoying to read all the stuff in the papers about the students being sold short, maybe for the self-isolation support they are, but many academic staff are working harder than ever before.

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And it hasn't made these savings.  The public sector is massively inefficient.  Are you a public sector union rep by any chance?

So how do you think it responded to cuts in funding then? When I say "asked" I really mean forced. What's your measure of "massive inefficiency" and evidence?  Are you one of this site's wannabe speculators by any chance? 

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IIRC UKGOBV is spending ~50% of UK GDP at the mo. A sane person would question what that is being spent on.

The UK dream has always been (or was) - US level of taxation with European levels of public service.

The unspoken UK nightmare is US levels of public service with European levels of taxation.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this occurred because by attempting to cut government spending other cost occurred, because of increasing social problems. Displacement of positive spending by negative. Would explain the pattern you point to.

On the other hand perhaps your measure of tax take is questionable. Wikipedia lists the UK tax take as 34% of GDP amongst the lowest in Europe, citing figures from the "Heritage Foundation" (a free market think tank?).

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In all honesty, the average middle class British person (the backbone of the economy) receives nothing from the government, from leaving state education at 18 until whatever miserly inflated away means tested state pension they will receive at aged 70. They have no way of hiding taxes as they pay through PAYE. Why would they care about the so-called social contract?

sympathise with what you are saying but they do get free education for their kids at primary and secondary and largely free (but increasingly poor) health care (at least until the vultures arrive after Brexit). Those are massive contributions to your financial and general wellbeing. The problem as I see it is that the social contract deteriorates so much all the time in terms of people's benefits from it but your tax contribution does not. 

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This 100 times.

Apart from the pre-recording of lectures, all the extra effort to schedule in-person as well as online tutorials (these being small groups), to add activities to increase engagement, admin staff less available to help with the donkey work.  It's a bit annoying to read all the stuff in the papers about the students being sold short, maybe for the self-isolation support they are, but many academic staff are working harder than ever before.

101 times

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Some public services still should be cut back though.  Apparently bees are doing better this year because roadside verges have been cut less - well stop spending our money harming wildlife

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/coronavirus-lockdown-wildflowers-bees-rewilding-council-verges-mowing-a9458291.html

we can agree on that, but I think it's pretty much the exception. And even when waste can be identified it's complicated. E.g. much of NHS spending is negative now on managers and admin, but this is because of the internal market, costs of contracting and monitoring performance and associated bureaucracy, it used to be much more "efficient" as a command and control operation. Doesn't mean it can be cut back now, ie with the internal market in place, without impact on services though.  

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we can agree on that, but I think it's pretty much the exception. Much of NHS spending is negative now on managers and admin, but this is because of the internal market, costs of contracting and monitoring performance and associated bureaucracy, it used to be much more "efficient" as a command and control operation. 

Can you cite any reports to back that up?

My own observation as a frequent outpatient in the last 18 months, is that running the hospital, employing huge numbers ranging from renowned specialist prima donnas at the top down to cleaners and canteen staff at the bottom, must be a nightmare. Making the most efficient use of these human resources, along with buildings, facilities and expensive equipment must be a nightmare. Then there are the patients who get lost, forget appointments or intentionally don't turn up when and where expected. Not to mention those who are threatening, or barely house trained. Then everything must be recorded and checked, and management staff must be accountable for results, good and bad.

Managing within the NHS must be one of the most challenging management environments anywhere.

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Can you cite any reports to back that up?

My own observation as a frequent outpatient in the last 18 months, is that running the hospital, employing huge numbers ranging from renowned specialist prima donnas at the top down to cleaners and canteen staff at the bottom, must be a nightmare. Making the most efficient use of these human resources, along with buildings, facilities and expensive equipment must be a nightmare. Then there are the patients who get lost, forget appointments or intentionally don't turn up when and where expected. Not to mention those who are threatening, or barely house trained. Then everything must be recorded and checked, and management staff must be accountable for results, good and bad.

Managing within the NHS must be one of the most challenging management environments anywhere.

The costs you outline are all real but would occur in any healthcare system. I saw research some years ago by management academics at Loughborough University after the internal market came in, and there was evidence of increasing contracting and associated activities accompanying the growth in managerial and admin posts. Makes sense to me as these are going to be complicated contracts to negotiate and monitor, and follow up on / enforce if and when things go wrong.

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We've been starving the public sector of resources.

I pay substantially less tax here than I did in the UK, yet I don't see people starving in the streets.

The UK's public sector is just tremendously inefficient and overpaid, though I'm starting to see that coming here too, in the organizations I know about; more and more overpaid managers, more 'diversity and inclusiveness' coordinators, and less and less actual workers to do the work the organization is supposed to be doing.

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Perhaps this occurred because by attempting to cut government spending other cost occurred, because of increasing social problems. Displacement of positive spending by negative. Would explain the pattern you point to.

On the other hand perhaps your measure of tax take is questionable. Wikipedia lists the UK tax take as 34% of GDP amongst the lowest in Europe, citing figures from the "Heritage Foundation" (a free market think tank?).

I said UK spending as a percentage of GDP, not tax take.

UK is spending so much as there are millions of working age people doing pointless made up jobs parttime for vast in work subs.

Theyve been joined  several million non nations doing the same, with the same sub,

Overall ther have been no cuts in UKGOV spending, quite the opposite.

 

 

 

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we can agree on that, but I think it's pretty much the exception. And even when waste can be identified it's complicated. E.g. much of NHS spending is negative now on managers and admin, but this is because of the internal market, costs of contracting and monitoring performance and associated bureaucracy, it used to be much more "efficient" as a command and control operation. Doesn't mean it can be cut back now, ie with the internal market in place, without impact on services though.  

No its not.

Try getting a seat on your local health board and getting the figures on where the money is spent.

 

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14 hours ago, nickb1 said:

Are you seriously suggesting it is possible to any significant extent? In the real world more bread requires more flour. Try thinking it through in relation to any bread recipe. It's a consequence of mass balance, implied by the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get something from nothing.

As others have implied, you are assuming 100% efficiency. If you are implying the public sector runs at anything close 100% efficiency, then you are a shill or astoundingly naive.

You seem to think the public sector runs at 90%

I'm pretty sure it runs at about 10% and the same service to customers (i.e. the taxpayer) could be rendered at one fifth to one tenth the cost.

10 hours ago, nickb1 said:

The costs you outline are all real but would occur in any healthcare system.

But they are far more prevalent when the service is "free at the point of use", especially for people who know they aren't even paying for it at distance. (e.g. the NHS)

In the US, which shitlibs love to present as a showcase of the evils of the free market, government programs will pay for any and all ambulance rides. So what do people do? Instead of paying $7 to get a taxi to hospital and pick up a prescription, they will call an ambulance, which is faster and they don't have to pay for it.

The hospital doesn't care, because firstly it is forced to provide this service anyway and it simply bills the government for the trip. So the cost has gone from $7 to the person who is actually consuming the resource to thousands of dollars to people who are not using or benefiting form the service in any way.

So to contradict your idea, you could use 1/1000th the flour and get the same amount of bread.

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  • 432 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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