Why Are The Young So Impressed By The Eu?

[pig]

...suggest you go further than Europe ...might broaden the mind....

Nah - going to do Europe until the party is stopped. The rest of the world can wait. ?

[EssKay]

The world has changed, irrespective of the EU. The EU is a project instigated by Washtington to consolidate US control over the nations and peoples of Europe. Its (Washington's) policies are one and the same with the EUs. The myth of the EU being a left-leaning socialist protector of workers rights is pure propaganda and nonsense.

How many other countries need to be destroyed and how many more economies ruined by the greed and recklessness of the ECB and its army of ex-Goldman Sachs minions before people say enough is enough? How much more does our remaining democracy need to be eroded before we say no?

I'm no fan of the EU and it's anti democratic, autocratic tendencies, but exactly what are you expecting to happen as a result of BREXIT?

Washington and the rest of the world will leave us alone to become the perfect self contained model of Athenian democracy?

That the armies of ex-Goldman Sachs minions and their ilk will leave our economy alone and let us get back to a path of sustainable economic growth?

[pig]

I'm no fan of the EU and it's anti democratic, autocratic tendencies, but exactly what are you expecting to happen as a result of BREXIT?

Washington and the rest of the world will leave us alone to become the perfect self contained model of Athenian democracy?

That the armies of ex-Goldman Sachs minions and their ilk will leave our economy alone and let us get back to a path of sustainable economic growth?

Well, hopefully at least the kippers and the xenophobes can now feck off and leave the adults to try and sort out the mess.

[Snicks918]

Ok, I agree that it's more democratic to have full control, but do you really believe we do have more genuine control now? It seems like in our out, our democracy only gives citizens the illusion of control.

Our system is a shadow of democracy. Parties are elected on manifestos that they immediately abandon after election. Politicians lying to the public is legal - indeed, it's par for the course. And the revolving door between politics and business makes a mockery of anyone who grew up thinking that we lived in a country free of corruption.

My point is two fold:

1. at what point will 'we' have any further input into how funding is distributed? We have a choice between 2 parties once every 5 years. How high up the list of debate topics do you think research funding is likely to be?!

2. Our universities are world leading. If these people we don't know are sending loads of money to our unis, it sounds like it's a good thing, no? Who cares who they are?! There are many reasons to worry about unelected beurocrats in Europe, I'm sure the Greeks can tell you more. But regaining control of the distribution of science research funding is not something that's likely to get better in any way, when you look at how the unis have been attacked and privatised first by nu labour and now the conservatives.

I find it incredibly interesting to compare the thought process of young people in the UK (And I'm 29, so not old ) who voted to Remain with what has been happening in the United States with Bernie Sanders. It is the younger generation in the latter instance that is pushing for change, for better working conditions, for more regulation on the banks, and they have belief that they have the power to do it. They don't have to accept the system they've been given.

I'm not picking on you because I've seen similar statements from many people about how the system is broken but there is nothing we can do about it. I don't know if it's a different of mentality ('this is my lot in life' vs 'the American Dream') or if it's because you do have other options (you mentioned you could move to Berlin to get a cheaper house. Good idea, but why isn't fixing things at home an option?, and the EU is another alternative if the UK government is terrible) whereas Americans just have to make the best of what we have because we don't have a higher authority like the EU to turn to or another country we can easily move to. This seems to be the difference between a lot of voters as well. Remain thinks 'the British system is broken, so at least we have the EU to keep them in check since we can't do anything about it', whereas the Leave voters think 'the British system is broken, they use the EU as a scapegoat, let's take that crutch away and force them to improve. Or replace them'. I'm a bit of an armchair psychologist so the difference in thinking patterns is curious to me. Especially how in the US it is the young people who feel most empowered to create change, yet it seems to be the other way around in the UK if the voting demographics are to be believed.

[pig]

I find it incredibly interesting to compare the thought process of young people in the UK (And I'm 29, so not old ) who voted to Remain with what has been happening in the United States with Bernie Sanders. It is the younger generation in the latter instance that is pushing for change, for better working conditions, for more regulation on the banks, and they have belief that they have the power to do it. They don't have to accept the system they've been given.

I'm not picking on you because I've seen similar statements from many people about how the system is broken but there is nothing we can do about it. I don't know if it's a different of mentality ('this is my lot in life' vs 'the American Dream') or if it's because you do have other options (you mentioned you could move to Berlin to get a cheaper house. Good idea, but why isn't fixing things at home an option?, and the EU is another alternative if the UK government is terrible) whereas Americans just have to make the best of what we have because we don't have a higher authority like the EU to turn to or another country we can easily move to. This seems to be the difference between a lot of voters as well. Remain thinks 'the British system is broken, so at least we have the EU to keep them in check since we can't do anything about it', whereas the Leave voters think 'the British system is broken, they use the EU as a scapegoat, let's take that crutch away and force them to improve. Or replace them'. I'm a bit of an armchair psychologist so the difference in thinking patterns is curious to me. Especially how in the US it is the young people who feel most empowered to create change, yet it seems to be the other way around in the UK if the voting demographics are to be believed.

Actually the problem over here was almost the opposite: nobody was engaged enough in EU politics and almost entirely focussed on domestic politics.

It only kicked off with immigration hysteria on the Leave side, and the threat of removing indivudual protections and international cooperation etc on the other.

Personally, I think the root problems here, compared to many problems in the US, are a lot sneakier even though the effects are terrible.

[HovelinHove]

When youre young you think the world is your oyster. Being able to work anywhere is a romantic idea, like interailing. Unfortunately they don't realise if you have a good skill you can work anywhere anyway with a passport And work visa.

Totally true. I got into Canada with my skills. The problem with Europe is the languages...I mean, we are lazy because we can be, but if you really want a decent job in Europe you need another language...not always, I have had colleagues go to EU headquarters who don't speak the local language, but they soon get miserable from a socialising aspect. How many young people outside of the pampered elite can speak more than a few words like our generation? It's a falicy that they will be able to get anything more than chalet work.

[Snicks918]

Actually the problem over here was almost the opposite: nobody was engaged enough in EU politics and almost entirely focussed on domestic politics.

It only kicked off with immigration hysteria on the Leave side, and the threat of removing indivudual protections and international cooperation etc on the other.

Personally, I think the root problems here, compared to many problems in the US, are a lot sneakier even though the effects are terrible.

That's interesting. Obviously my experience is only anecdotal, but every time I talk to a very angry Remain voter and point out that if they are worried about the UK government going unchecked and any policies they make that might disadvantage "vulnerable" people they can vote against those politicians or even run for office themselves, they look at me like I'm crazy. Maybe they are just in shock and aren't at the point of entertaining any ideas for moving forward yet

[jfk]

I work as a post doc in a university and yesterday the young uns went mental, absolutely mental. I could not believe the pure hate directed against people who voted to leave the EU ( I kept quiet). One chap seemed to think it will send is back to the dark ages.

The older staff were just as bad and the chancellor even sent an email out saying how we need to all such together despite the bad news. Personally I think they are just shitting it because without all the immigrants doing there degrees at the uni its probably the end of the road.

Baffles me too. I have quite a few ex university colleagues working in the higher education bubble but who in are the same age group as me (early 40s), I have an honorary university contract and received a similar email from the university chancellor which I thought was absolutely disgraceful. One went out before the vote basically saying vote remain. Absolutely disgraceful. Obviously only concerned with their foreign students paying stupid money for a stupid degree.

[VeryMeanReversion]

Warning - completely obvious but important statement incoming......

The young are impressed by the EU since they get the benefits without paying for it.

They will learn.

My kids voted (at school) for Brexit after I said that if they charge me any more for mowing the lawn, I'll get the Lithuanians that live next door to do it. A bit of commercial reality does wonders.

Only one person in my family voted to remain. She is the student-forever type, living off EU grants for her drama projects, somehow managed to keep that gravy train rolling into her 50's.

[VeryMeanReversion]

duplicate

Edited June 27, 2016 by VeryMeanReversion

[olde guto]

Baffles me too. I have quite a few ex university colleagues working in the higher education bubble but who in are the same age group as me (early 40s), I have an honorary university contract and received a similar email from the university chancellor which I thought was absolutely disgraceful. One went out before the vote basically saying vote remain. Absolutely disgraceful. Obviously only concerned with their foreign students paying stupid money for a stupid degree.

Worried about student fees? Depending on what brexit arrangements are made EU students could be paying the same a Chinese or Indian student depending on the uni and the course that'll probably be between £15-19k. To be honest I think unis are more interested in getting some Chinese students rather than some Czech students.

Now of course that means the UK students might no longer be able to benefit from zero tuition fees that some EU states have - that's a good reason for those who were planning to study abroad for free to be pee'd off.

As general comment I have to admit this has been one of the funniest threads ever, it's almost like a bunch of boomers wondering why the young don't like HPI and aren't more thankful or BTLers wondering why their tenants don't like them. That said the youngsters that are most upset are probably those who have least to worry about, if they're educated and perhaps speak a 2nd language, they can leave - the world is their oyster. Those youngsters that are most jubilant, especially those who aren't well educated, might find the brexit utopia was not all it was cracked up to be - there will still be immigration from non-EU states and if there is a Norway style agreement migration from EU-states (how these youngsters react in the long term we might all have to worry about).

[pig]

That's interesting. Obviously my experience is only anecdotal, but every time I talk to a very angry Remain voter and point out that if they are worried about the UK government going unchecked and any policies they make that might disadvantage "vulnerable" people they can vote against those politicians or even run for office themselves, they look at me like I'm crazy. Maybe they are just in shock and aren't at the point of entertaining any ideas for moving forward yet

I'm sure plenty are extremely p1ssed off with the Tories and certainly will avoid voting for them in future like the plague.

However the bottom line is, the idea young aren't bothered with politics sinply because of Europe is pretty hilarious.

You need to remember we don't have problems with gun control or the gross inequalities you have in the US (yet!). Setting aside the Jo Cox episode, or the current chaos for that matter, politics isn't normally such a palpable matter of life and death over here.

Always possible, of course, those last could radicalise the young.

[Foreverblowingbubbles]

I find it incredibly interesting to compare the thought process of young people in the UK (And I'm 29, so not old ) who voted to Remain with what has been happening in the United States with Bernie Sanders. It is the younger generation in the latter instance that is pushing for change, for better working conditions, for more regulation on the banks, and they have belief that they have the power to do it. They don't have to accept the system they've been given.

I'm not picking on you because I've seen similar statements from many people about how the system is broken but there is nothing we can do about it. I don't know if it's a different of mentality ('this is my lot in life' vs 'the American Dream') or if it's because you do have other options (you mentioned you could move to Berlin to get a cheaper house. Good idea, but why isn't fixing things at home an option?, and the EU is another alternative if the UK government is terrible) whereas Americans just have to make the best of what we have because we don't have a higher authority like the EU to turn to or another country we can easily move to. This seems to be the difference between a lot of voters as well. Remain thinks 'the British system is broken, so at least we have the EU to keep them in check since we can't do anything about it', whereas the Leave voters think 'the British system is broken, they use the EU as a scapegoat, let's take that crutch away and force them to improve. Or replace them'. I'm a bit of an armchair psychologist so the difference in thinking patterns is curious to me. Especially how in the US it is the young people who feel most empowered to create change, yet it seems to be the other way around in the UK if the voting demographics are to be believed.

Yep that's very good point. Personally, I completely agree that we need to work more to change our own system. But the first pas the post 2 party system makes this very difficult. In the mean time, the EU is more left wing than our own ruling party, so whilst it's a block to having a fully accountable democracy, I feel on balance that it's a check and balance to the nutters running the country right now.

I was very torn over the vote because of this. I do 100% agree that change at home is the most important thing we need. At least without the EU there as a scape goat, people now can't blame immigration for all of our troubles. As others mentioned, it's neo liberalism that's at the heart of most of our issues. And this was something that the uk and USA exported to Europe via ex Goldman employees, rather than something the EU forced upon us

[MississippiJohnHurt]

Think forever has hit alot of pretty true issues which the younger voter would feel that remaining is better. For myself(30 year old) I voted out. I am amongst the few in my age group and friends that did. The amount of anger that hit Facebook after the result seemed crazy. I found it very strange as these people normally had no political views before and in majority of cases I don't think have voted before. They now seem to have a huge view and think anyone who voted leave is an idiot. Infact one of our closer friends said anyone voting out was an idiot a few months back which really wound one if my other friends up. Looking at the people that I know who voted remain were people who have generally been gifted and haven't had to struggle for much as parents have given them pretty much everything, and are in a way out of touch with realality and are quite narrow minded. I feel that a might be in a minority of voters of leave as I'm 30 in the south east, have a house , two kids, married and a decent paying job and in a position where only one of us needs to work full time. However I work in the houseing industry and likely to suffer down turn first in the economy starts to default. However I feel it's necessary to do for the long term, I feel if we hadn't of voted to leave last week, it would of happend within a few years time anyway but via the eu failing. I see the global economy on a gradually decline, and it is inevitable that unions will break up to protect their own interests. I see the rise of the snp in Scotland as a massive indicator in this country are not happy and the snp and the other small parties rising in society is also inevitable when people feel like they have nothing to loose. Sadly a lot of my generation don't and a lot in the south I think can't see we are going to get poorer no matter which way we go. Hopefully coming out of a controlled system will put us ahead when the rest of the eu will fall apart and we can show countries that it can work outside this union.

This pretty much sums up my experience too....the facebook thing has been almost comical, with people I know for a fact who have no interest or knowledge about politics suddenly becoming authorities on this question. And the EU itself is now second only to the court of King Arthur I see. I have stayed well out of it.

I put it down to the same things - most of my extended circle are from the se and doing pretty well out of globalisation. They are also not used to struggling or to things not going their way. And they are displaying a disturbing lack of empathy and regard for democracy along the way.

Im staying well out of the debate on there but I think the whole thing is rather shrill and shallow and wont last. There doesn't seem to be much of a clamour to actually do anything except abuse people who have the wrong viewpoint.

Another thing will be along soon to divert the echo chamber's attention.

[canbuywontbuy]

Totally true. I got into Canada with my skills. The problem with Europe is the languages...I mean, we are lazy because we can be, but if you really want a decent job in Europe you need another language...not always, I have had colleagues go to EU headquarters who don't speak the local language, but they soon get miserable from a socialising aspect. How many young people outside of the pampered elite can speak more than a few words like our generation? It's a falicy that they will be able to get anything more than chalet work.

Also, where are they going to work? Not in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France or Greece off the top of my head (where youth unemployment is very high).

It's easy to think young people are flitting around Europe and working where they like - because the UK is a massive hotspot for young immigrants. But how much is reciprocated? How many young Brits are working in Europe? How many actually have the qualifications to jump ahead of indigenous, native speaking Swedish in Sweden for example? "Oh don't worry, everyone speaks English in Sweden!" - until you're in the workplace, that is. And also that's a double-edged sword anyway - if the richer northern countries of Europe all speak a high level of English, then being a native speaker of English is hardly a unique selling point, even if you DO speak Swedish. Bilingual skills would be a lot more useful in the southern countries of Europe, but the thing is - this is where all the high unemployment is.

Edited June 27, 2016 by canbuywontbuy

[iamnumerate]

The U.K. science funding is way below what it pays in for others funding. But for many smaller universities it's important

Amazingly many academics don't seem to be able to understand that the EU doesn't pay anything. Eu taxpayers do and as we are a net payer we can still fund them. Of course if they can't understand this then perhaps they shouldn't be funded.

[pig]

Amazingly many academics don't seem to be able to understand that the EU doesn't pay anything. Eu taxpayers do and as we are a net payer we can still fund them. Of course if they can't understand this then perhaps they shouldn't be funded.

FFS.

[Saver]

Amazingly many academics don't seem to be able to understand that the EU doesn't pay anything. Eu taxpayers do and as we are a net payer we can still fund them. Of course if they can't understand this then perhaps they shouldn't be funded.

They are well aware of that.

Their worry is that elections are never fought on research funding. Its usually forgotten about, rarely discussed in campaigns and very vulnerable to any spending cuts because of that. Our research base has been partially propped up by EU funding as UK government cuts have bitten more and more deeply, and if EU funding goes its very likely in the dash to dump all the money in the NHS it will be forgotten about again.

Its not only that - on more collaborative projects across countries, these are often does with EU funding. We could be frozen out of that and lose international research links.

Researchers are right to see a bleak future in this country after the referendum.

[South Lorne]

Ok, I agree that it's more democratic to have full control, but do you really believe we do have more genuine control now? It seems like in our out, our democracy only gives citizens the illusion of control.

Our system is a shadow of democracy. Parties are elected on manifestos that they immediately abandon after election. Politicians lying to the public is legal - indeed, it's par for the course. And the revolving door between politics and business makes a mockery of anyone who grew up thinking that we lived in a country free of corruption.

My point is two fold:

1. at what point will 'we' have any further input into how funding is distributed? We have a choice between 2 parties once every 5 years. How high up the list of debate topics do you think research funding is likely to be?!

2. Our universities are world leading. If these people we don't know are sending loads of money to our unis, it sounds like it's a good thing, no? Who cares who they are?! There are many reasons to worry about unelected beurocrats in Europe, I'm sure the Greeks can tell you more. But regaining control of the distribution of science research funding is not something that's likely to get better in any way, when you look at how the unis have been attacked and privatised first by nu labour and now the conservatives.

...I think you can take comfort from the fact our Universities were world leading pre 1973, when we joined the EU and our investment in research kept us among the leaders in this field....

[Foreverblowingbubbles]

...I think you can take comfort from the fact our Universities were world leading pre 1973, when we joined the EU and our investment in research kept us among the leaders in this field....

Yes that's true, but our government now is massively ideologically different from the government in the post war era.

This government believes that government action gets in the way of private investment, and that the private sector alone should be making these kind of investments. The government that we have as a steward of uni investment now will be night and day different to that of the past.

Of course, the data doesn't support their view. Many of the greatest advances came about through government investment. The greatest innovative drive of all is of course the one thing that more or less Only governments do - waging war. But if you look at things like our Internet backbone, vaccination, the space program and everything that led to... Almost all our massive advances are initially publicly funded, and then get privatised once there's a cash cow created. The idea that private enterprise will fill the investment gap in more speculative areas such as fusion power and other advanced physics project is just laughable.

This argument 'things were better before the EU, so it will be ok this time' fails because all other things are not equal. This is not a scientific experiment where EU membership is the only thing that's changed. To think what the outcome will be, we have to at least try to understand what other factors have changed as well

[Austin Allegro]

I'm in my 40s so not a 'yoof' but I did spend a few years living and working in a European capital. It's actually not as easy as is made out by the EU-philes and I had a lot of headaches over tax, healthcare, residency etc which were never sorted out. It works well if you're Latvian and want to pick strawberries in Lincolnshire, but not so well if you're a self employed consultant who works between two countries, etc. I suspect a lot of young folk like the idea of going off and living in a European country but don't in practice do it. It's basically misty eyed romantic viewpoint.

That said, I agree with Charles Moore who said the reason people are angry is because 1. they confuse Europe with the EU and 2. They have been led to believe that parliamentary democracy is somehow racist.

I am convinced that many Remainers, especially younger ones, think that we are 'leaving Europe' and this means somehow turning our back on all the good things of Europe. They have also been convinced that before joining the EU, Britain was some sort of cultural backwater where everyone ate spam all the time. They forget that before the 1970s nearly everywhere in the world was more inward looking and monocultural. Britain was actually very engaged with other cultures through its commonwealth connections, far more so than, say, Germany.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Austin Allegro

[pig]

Also, where are they going to work? Not in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France or Greece off the top of my head (where youth unemployment is very high).

It's easy to think young people are flitting around Europe and working where they like - because the UK is a massive hotspot for young immigrants. But how much is reciprocated? How many young Brits are working in Europe? How many actually have the qualifications to jump ahead of indigenous, native speaking Swedish in Sweden for example? "Oh don't worry, everyone speaks English in Sweden!" - until you're in the workplace, that is. And also that's a double-edged sword anyway - if the richer northern countries of Europe all speak a high level of English, then being a native speaker of English is hardly a unique selling point, even if you DO speak Swedish. Bilingual skills would be a lot more useful in the southern countries of Europe, but the thing is - this is where all the high unemployment is.

Oh come on this is silly and It's an academic question now anyway.

Anybody who can will still scramble for an EU passport. 'Project Pessimism on Europe' may be unleashed in the hope of clawing back political capital but really what you need is Europe to be permanently and catastrophically screwed or also ripped apart by their indigenous kippers. Could happen though - I guess we're a tiny step closer now.

[canbuywontbuy]

Oh come on this is silly and It's an academic question now anyway.

Anybody who can will still scramble for an EU passport. 'Project Pessimism on Europe' may be unleashed in the hope of clawing back political capital but really what you need is Europe to be permanently and catastrophically screwed or also ripped apart by their indigenous kippers. Could happen though - I guess we're a tiny step closer now.

Persuasive argument, but I'm still not convinced.

Seriously though, don't you get my point? How much does Europe need young Brits? The southern countries generally don't speak English, so you if you had bilingual skills, then great - there's your unique selling point for jobs that require English and the native language. Except....the southern countries are mired in mass unemployment. The northern countries are already largely bilingual (English as 2nd language), so where's the young Brit's unique selling points? Not interested in outliers like amazingly talented/qualified individuals, but the average young Brit who wants to work in Europe. Remainers never mention the mass unemployment in the southern countries....wonder why?

Anyway, thanks for the.....contribution.

Edited June 27, 2016 by canbuywontbuy

[DeepLurker]

Yes that's true, but our government now is massively ideologically different from the government in the post war era.

This government believes that government action gets in the way of private investment, and that the private sector alone should be making these kind of investments. The government that we have as a steward of uni investment now will be night and day different to that of the past.

Of course, the data doesn't support their view. Many of the greatest advances came about through government investment. The greatest innovative drive of all is of course the one thing that more or less Only governments do - waging war. But if you look at things like our Internet backbone, vaccination, the space program and everything that led to... Almost all our massive advances are initially publicly funded, and then get privatised once there's a cash cow created. The idea that private enterprise will fill the investment gap in more speculative areas such as fusion power and other advanced physics project is just laughable.

This argument 'things were better before the EU, so it will be ok this time' fails because all other things are not equal. This is not a scientific experiment where EU membership is the only thing that's changed. To think what the outcome will be, we have to at least try to understand what other factors have changed as well

I'd like to modify slightly your post: yes, changes that derive from fundamental research almost always depend on the State. Your examples of the internet & the space program are correct.

At the same time, many fundamental changes to our society have happened through purely private endeavours - railway networks transformed Britain. Likewise with the change from horse-drawn carriages to automobiles.

This is just as true today: it's very likely that in 20 years time, driverless electric cars will be a common sight on our roads. This will bring about colossal changes to how our cities are laid out - and and it's mostly private companies that are funding the research.

[Eddie_George]

I think it's just as simple as that they fear losing cheap European flights and holidays.

Apart from the latest iphone model, it's all that they have to look forward to.