Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[knock out johnny]

16 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

If it's a stupid question you should be able to give a less stupid answer, not that I expect Remainers to be able to do that. The deeply alarming part is that we've got so many Remainers who think like that (using the word "think" loosely). Accept that whatever the EU will do is what the EU should do, never question it, never think about it. If that isn't the case you should have no difficulty answering "Why is it in their interests?" with something better than "Because it is" or the equally pathetic "You've got to be in the club!" If you're going to accuse other people of idiocy you need to demonstrate some critical thinking yourself.

as St Theresa keeps saying we don't have to accept anything, , we can have no deal. The reality is that the EU doesn't have to do what you wish it to do

I have demonstrated plenty of critical thinking - as opposed to not liking what the realities are and wishing it away. At least you're not chanting the 'they need us more than we need them' mantra. Well done you

Go back to wishing less people - seriously. That is really all you ever bring to any discussion. Yours is truly a dreary existence

 

[pig]

1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

That's really looking at the very short, immediate surroundings. I see further than that - I react to what there is for miles around me, that all influences how you feel about it. Sure, you could have far better denser housing than we've got now but there will be no getting away from the fact that you're surrounded by an awful lot of people, even if it's entirely practical without hassle. Hell, how many towns and cities there are within a fifty mile radius makes a difference to the way you perceive the world. Perhaps some people have lived all their lives caged up in badly managed cities and don't see that, and I pity them and the narrow horizons that gives. You don't get wide horizons when surrounded by lots of people.

Wow - and that was a gloriously hilariously succinct inadvertent annihilation of your 'outlook'.

[Byron]

14 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

 You don't get wide horizons when surrounded by lots of people.

So true.

Most people find Londoners a bit odd, even unnatural.

[knock out johnny]

3 minutes ago, Byron said:

So true.

Most people find Londoners a bit odd, even unnatural.

Who? How? In what way?

Please explain such a nonsensical statement

[pig]

6 minutes ago, Byron said:

So true.

Most people find Londoners a bit odd, even unnatural.

???

[awaytogo]

1 hour ago, Peter Hun said:

He's not deluded, he knows his history. He will get to become Prime Minister if and when the the pact between the Mad Queen and the Dinosaur Haters collapses.

Watch the Markets fall if he does along with the already falling house prices,

[slawek]

14 minutes ago, Byron said:

So true.

Most people find Londoners a bit odd, even unnatural.

It's time for Lexit. It is clear we Londoners have more common with Europe than people in the rest of England. 

[Peter Hun]

19 minutes ago, awaytogo said:

Watch the Markets fall if he does along with the already falling house prices,

As he wont have a majority and no mandate to push his manifesto, he won't be able to do anything radical.

The markets are morons, you can ignore them.

 

[Peter Hun]

16 minutes ago, slawek said:

It's time for Lexit. It is clear we Londoners have more common with Europe than people in the rest of England. 

Opposable thumbs, for instance.

[pig]

21 minutes ago, slawek said:

It's time for Lexit. It is clear we Londoners have more common with Europe than people in the rest of England. 

It's a fun idea but London is basically the rest of England and Britain mixed with Europe and beyond. That's partly why people love it. Despite being 'unnatural' ?

[jonb2]

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Mad Queen and the Dinosaur Haters

I seem to remember I had their one LP on my vinyl collection - not visited it for a while.

During my (non) progressive rock purple period.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, pig said:

Wow - and that was a gloriously hilariously succinct inadvertent annihilation of your 'outlook'.

Only if you assume I was talking just about with respect to meeting people instead of the world in general, which speaks of a very narrow mindset on your part.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, knock out johnny said:

as St Theresa keeps saying we don't have to accept anything, , we can have no deal. The reality is that the EU doesn't have to do what you wish it to do

I have demonstrated plenty of critical thinking - as opposed to not liking what the realities are and wishing it away. At least you're not chanting the 'they need us more than we need them' mantra. Well done you

Go back to wishing less people - seriously. That is really all you ever bring to any discussion. Yours is truly a dreary existence

I've never said the EU should do what I wish it to. I just don't see any rational reason for it not doing so, and you continually fail to provide one because doing so would require questioning things. You appear to be mistaking my dislike for believing that's what will actually happen. If I believed otherwise was possible I'd probably have less of a tone of contempt. You're supposed "critical thinking" appears to be accepting things as they are and refusing to dig deeper, to consider why they are, and what it says about the people who make them that way.

Sure, my existence is dreary sometimes. That's the downside of living in a world with people like yourself.

[Riedquat]

43 minutes ago, pig said:

It's a fun idea but London is basically the rest of England and Britain mixed with Europe and beyond. That's partly why people love it. Despite being 'unnatural' ?

That people love being crowded around, lousy air quality, noise, ludicrous house prices even by UK standards and so on says a great deal about a certain group of people. Mostly the type who are easily distracted by waving something shiny at them. It's can be fun for a short visit but to tolerate more requires being incredibly shallow and superficial.

[Venger]

1 hour ago, Riedquat said:

That's really looking at the very short, immediate surroundings. I see further than that - I react to what there is for miles around me, that all influences how you feel about it. Sure, you could have far better denser housing than we've got now but there will be no getting away from the fact that you're surrounded by an awful lot of people, even if it's entirely practical without hassle. Hell, how many towns and cities there are within a fifty mile radius makes a difference to the way you perceive the world. Perhaps some people have lived all their lives caged up in badly managed cities and don't see that, and I pity them and the narrow horizons that gives. You don't get wide horizons when surrounded by lots of people.

I thought mine was a long-range view !!!  

While offering up we are trapped in short-term view/VIs, that damages wider society (and results in a lot of frustration for people like you and me), and which has been result of local UK politics, and less to do with the EU.

What could be, but what we are so far away from, trapped in this paradigm, and maybe responsible for some of the frustrations many have, on the less/have-not side of things, and because of impact of what feels like crowd/demand/densification/more traffic/busy trains.

That's one view of the world.   You may perceive quality of live as better that way (surrounded by fewer people)... and I respect your view.  Other people do thrive with in high-density environments, although I agree they may do so in far less than optimal housing/city conditions for housing and transport.  

They may experience other things.  Fast pace, for perhaps a few downsides.  We are all different, and we all lead complicated entirely individual different lives.  There are many ways to live, and live happily, - individual choices in pursuit of different things we have different interests in to make us happy.   Individuals have to be free to choose how they want to live their lives imo.  There just is not 1 perfect/superior way to do so.  
 

Quote

..it's like every human in population being slightly different, almost their own individual species despite appearances.

-Matter.  Iain M. Banks

 

 

Not as happy and 'fully-right-choice' as he pretended to be.... claiming all others wrong, and convinced in his world outlook.

Edit: Forgot main scene...

 

Freedom to choose (for you density may not work, but does for others, and I don't pity them if that's their choice and makes them personally happy.  Better that than having other people's superior way imposed on them.   And in future perhaps more living space in higher housing density via smarter ways of doing things), especially if we had fewer VIs on the mad-gainz HPI chase and renterism side of things.  

I simply want more choice and freedom, away from powerful VI, which have created the frame of reality in the current time.  Housing haves, have-moars, and many taking brunt of it from the other side.   The main risks, as I see them, is from having an economy where opportunity is blocked out, (eg housing financialisation big winners vs losers) and there is a shift in the number of people willing to stand/defend the current system... for they have little stake in it.  And it's not easy to get those with a different frame of the world to understand it, and then they have their own VI, so turn around and offer HTB (and don't ban ridic BTL, and choose policies to protect and chase mad-gainz HPI etc).

Quote

Empires had fallen to barbarians before, and no doubt would again. Gurgeh knew all this from his
childhood. Culture children were taught such things. The barbarians invade, and are taken over. Not
always; some empires dissolve and cease, but many absorb; many take the barbarians in and end up
conquering them. They make them live like the people they set out to take over. The architecture of the
system channels them, beguiles them, seduces and transforms them, demanding from them what they
could not before have given but slowly grow to offer. The empire survives, the barbarians survive, but
the empire is no more and the barbarians are nowhere to be found.

[ . . . ]

The streets and the sky were both full of traffic. Groasnachek was like a great, flattened, spiky animal,
awash with lights at night and hazy with its own heaped breath during the day. It spoke with a great,
garbled choir of voices; an encompassing background roar of engines and machines that never ceased,
and the sporadic tearing sounds of passing aircraft. The continual wails, whoops, warbles and screams
of sirens and alarms were strewn across the fabric of the city like shrapnel holes.

Architecturally, Gurgeh thought, the place was a hopeless mix of styles, and far too big. Some buildings
soared, some sprawled, but each seemed to have been designed without any regard to any other, and the
whole effect - which might have been interestingly varied - was in fact gruesome. He kept thinking of the
Little Rascal, holding ten times as many people as the city in a smaller area, and far more elegantly,
even though most of the craft's volume was taken up with ship-building space, engines, and other
equipment.

[ . . . ]

'I'm sorry if what I've shown you has upset you, Jernau Gurgeh, but I didn't want you to leave here thinking the Empire was just a few venerable game-players, some impressive architecture and a few glorified night-clubs. What you've seen tonight is also what it's about. And there's plenty in between that I can't show you; all the frustrations that affect the poor and the relatively well-off alike, caused simply because they live in a society where one is not free to do as one chooses. … a million things every day,  things that aren't as melodramatic and gross as what I've shown you, but which are still part of it, still some of the effects.

The ship told you a guilty system recognises no innocents. I'd say it does. ...but only to violate it.  Once again, Gurgeh, it all boils down to ownership, possession; about taking and having.'

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Venger

[Riedquat]

10 minutes ago, Venger said:

That's one view of the world.   You may perceive quality of live as better that way (surrounded by fewer people)... and I respect your view.  Other people do thrive with in high-density environments, although I agree they may do so in far less than optimal housing/city conditions for housing and transport. 

Sure, I accept that some people do. So the ideal to try to work towards is one that lets everyone have the type of environment they want. I'm certainly not advocating the removal of all cities. Nothing in my ideal reduces the chances of people being able to get the type of environment they want, quite the opposite. Unfortunately some of the more narrow-minded city-bound appear unable to grasp that - look how many of them seem to be peddlng "I like it and some others like it so you've got a problem." Sure, I'm prone to sneering at them (although I like to think that I usually don't before provocation), but I also like to think that I can usually see where they're coming from. I don't usually agree with it, and perhaps I'm too quick to sneer as a result.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Riedquat

[dugsbody]

13 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

I just don't see any rational reason for it not doing so, and you continually fail to provide one because doing so would require questioning things

People have provided the reasons hundreds, perhaps thousands of times on this very thread. You simply don't agree with them. This is fine but the fact that in actuality the situation is unfolding the way we said it would, while you think it shouldn't be happening, might lead you to question if your view is incorrect and perhaps you might consider that those reasons were valid. 

I suspect you won't and so you will continue to say "no-one can provide a reason".

[Venger]

3 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Sure, I accept that some people do. So the ideal to try to work towards is one that lets everyone have the type of environment they want. I'm certainly not advocating the removal of all cities. Nothing in my ideal reduces the chances of people being able to get the type of environment they want, quite the opposite. Unfortunately some of the more narrow-minded city-bound appear unable to grasp that - look how many of them seem to be peddlng "I like it and some others like it so you've got a problem."

Agreed.

I just wish we had more options, and argue VI housing financialistion has done so much to hinder options, especially for younger people, on the renting side, and to enrich many housing VI.

Not sure where I picked this up, and I didn't get very far when trying to research it further.

Quote

The word "civilisation," like "civility" and "citizen," is derived from the Latin civitas, for city.  Before cities, there was no real civilisation.

 

[Riedquat]

7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

People have provided the reasons hundreds, perhaps thousands of times on this very thread. You simply don't agree with them. This is fine but the fact that in actuality the situation is unfolding the way we said it would, while you think it shouldn't be happening, might lead you to question if your view is incorrect and perhaps you might consider that those reasons were valid. 

I suspect you won't and so you will continue to say "no-one can provide a reason".

No, people have just gone around in the same old circles, answers that are no answers. There's nothing concrete that I can disagree with. No "it would leave the EU worse off than the type of deal they want because..." The closest to a reason is that it's simply against the EU's ideology, which I'd at least find consistent even though it leaves me taking a dim view of that ideology. There are some "Well, that's how people behave, and that's what we need to deal with" type answers but they're answers to the practical issues - they explain the position truthfully enough but don't justify it.

The way Remainers said it would unfold we'd be all be living on bread and water by now.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Riedquat

[knock out johnny]

24 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

That people love being crowded around, lousy air quality, noise, ludicrous house prices even by UK standards and so on says a great deal about a certain group of people. Mostly the type who are easily distracted by waving something shiny at them. It's can be fun for a short visit but to tolerate more requires being incredibly shallow and superficial.

Maybe it just requires not living life as one eternal whine 

[pig]

 

31 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Only if you assume I was talking just about with respect to meeting people instead of the world in general, which speaks of a very narrow mindset on your part.

No.

My assumption, based on your previous posts, was that you are a proud Nimby, and perhaps a kind of disciple of Malthus.

The biggest, widest, most beautiful horizon on earth is... other people. That's in part why people flock to cities, and why urban density, for all its challenges, tends to generate civilisation elevating ideas.

I do love lying in a sunny field rippling in the breeze, carrying the scent of a thousand others. But if forced to make a choice, for me Other People are part of the solution, not part of the 'problem'.

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Why would they want to do that?

Because it's make your mind up time for the UK. They are happy for us to be in or out, but not half in half out with a bundle of concessions not available to other members.

[Riedquat]

3 minutes ago, pig said:

 

No.

My assumption, based on your previous posts, was that you are a proud Nimby, and perhaps a kind of disciple of Malthus.

The biggest, widest, most beautiful horizon on earth is... other people. That's in part why people flock to cities, and why urban density, for all its challenges, tends to generate civilisation elevating ideas.

I do love lying in a sunny field rippling in the breeze, carrying the scent of a thousand others. But if forced to make a choice, for me Other People are part of the solution, not part of the 'problem'.

See the post upthread about different things for different people. Some love living in cities, for others it's hell on earth. You're saying that what you want is what is right for everyone.

[rollover]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Given where he started from, and danger to the country or not, i think most people would concede that on his terms he won. 

He has destroyed May and now gets to safely watch the Brexit negotiations from the sidelines

The dots are now so huge even you should be able to join them up:

The EU will offer May the choice of a deal to stay in the EU or a very hard and expensive Brexit.

If May doesn't accept the deal, she won't be able to get either the hard Brexit or No deal through the house, so would be forced to call a GE, in which the Tory offer would be asking people to vote for being much poorer.

NB i say May because this chalice is so poisoned i cannot see anyone else being daft enough to pick it up until Brexit has played out

 

 

 

 

 

[Riedquat]

6 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Because it's make your mind up time for the UK. They are happy for us to be in or out, but not half in half out with a bundle of concessions not available to other members.

You're just back to that again - never a "why", just a bald statement with no substance. No "It would be unworkable because...", no "The EU would be worse off from that because..."

Edited June 11, 2017 by Riedquat