Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Byron]

Futuroid,

Can you clear something up for me.

In your last reply to me you said 'When I came here.'

Some of your other comments when you speak of 'Your Government' rather than 'The Government' or even 'Our government' lead me to wonder whether you are in fact foreigner.

[rollover]

13 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Bad analogy.

In a divorce you resolve the separation and future financial arrangements/custody relations AT THE SAME TIME.

What is not clear for you?
 

Quote

 

EU parliament puts three-year limit on transition arrangement and says no to free trade agreement in next two years.

Britain will not be given a free trade deal by the EU in the next two years, and a transition arrangement to cushion the UK’s exit after 2019 can last no longer than three years, a European parliament resolution has vowed, in the first official response by the EU institutions to the triggering of article 50 by Theresa May. Guardian

 

[thecrashingisles]

14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

More of the same tulip.

Rock the Casbah.

That's what the vote was about.

On one level you're right.  The Brexit process will in the end kill off the idea that our problems were caused by EU membership.

[Futuroid]

15 minutes ago, Byron said:

Futuroid,

Can you clear something up for me.

In your last reply to me you said 'When I came here.'

Some of your other comments when you speak of 'Your Government' rather than 'The Government' or even 'Our government' lead me to wonder whether you are in fact foreigner.

"When I came here" - "here" being HPC.

I say "Your government" because they do not represent me. Nor did I vote for them.

Born and raised on Tyneside, now living in Scotland, with Stuttgart, London and New York in between.

100% British and increasingly ashamed of it. Considering uprooting my family (if it was just me and the missus we'd be gone already).

[thecrashingisles]

26 minutes ago, Byron said:

Futuroid,

Can you clear something up for me.

In your last reply to me you said 'When I came here.'

Some of your other comments when you speak of 'Your Government' rather than 'The Government' or even 'Our government' lead me to wonder whether you are in fact foreigner.

Can I ask you a question in return?

Do you feel that there is any point at which the identities English, British and European blur and become mixed?  After all, the English are ethnically mainly from the continent as opposed to the Celts who have a longer heritage in the British Isles.  The cultural and political history of Britain is deeply interwoven with the rest of Europe.  We wouldn't be what we are otherwise.

If you try really, really hard, can you imagine why some of us who are 100% British might be absolutely comfortable with the idea that Europe does have a political dimension and the rightful place of the UK is as part of it?

[long time lurking]

1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

It certainly had nothing to do with Germany bombing anyone.

And it had nothing to do with Russian black op`s but everything to do with the Merkins welcoming speech 

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, long time lurking said:

And it had nothing to do with Russian black op`s but everything to do with the Merkins welcoming speech 

In case you missed it, this was the situation before Merkel said anything about welcoming refugees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33818193

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said the problem "surpasses" Greece's abilities, and that his country's economic problems meant it was facing a humanitarian "crisis within a crisis".   "Now we will find out whether solidarity in Europe is real"

[Richmond]

6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Can I ask you a question in return?

Do you feel that there is any point at which the identities English, British and European blur and become mixed?  After all, the English are ethnically mainly from the continent as opposed to the Celts who have a longer heritage in the British Isles.  The cultural and political history of Britain is deeply interwoven with the rest of Europe.  We wouldn't be what we are otherwise.

If you try really, really hard, can you imagine why some of us who are 100% British might be absolutely comfortable with the idea that Europe does have a political dimension and the rightful place of the UK is as part of it?

The problem on identity for me is I don't feel European. Until Brexit I had little idea what the EU did. I often wondered who these MEPs I was asked to vote for did or why I was being asked to vote for them. The EU and even Europe didn't feature much, if at all, in my day is to day life. I wasn't taught anything about it really at school, elections were pretty much a footnote in my day to day life. The French were the French, the Germans the Germans and the British the British. I wonder if it is just me living in some isolated bubble or if this is more widespread.

I do remember thinking what a good idea the concept of the EU was (from my extremely limited understanding) and how a United States of Europe may not be a bad thing geopolitically. But I still didn't (and don't) feel European.

[long time lurking]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

For Germany it is the Euro, giving it a currency devalued by countries like Greece enabling it to be extra competitive.

For France, I am less certain. Perhaps better unions, and a stronger state support for their businesses (quite how they do that with the competition rules is curious!).

Always wondered that myself especially when you look at the likes of EDF which is something like 70% + and then the former Alstom which was almost entirely owned /back by the government 

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, Richmond said:

I do remember thinking what a good idea the concept of the EU was (from my extremely limited understanding) and how a United States of Europe may not be a bad thing geopolitically. But I still didn't (and don't) feel European.

Despite not feeling it in the sense of it being a conscious part of your identity, do you accept on an intellectual level that you are European?

I don't think even the most ardent Europhiles see Europe as the kind of place where people will ever or should ever chant the equivalent of "U.S.A." at sporting events.  But I don't think that kind of thing is necessary to have a cohesive and successful EU.

[long time lurking]

8 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

In case you missed it, this was the situation before Merkel said anything about welcoming refugees:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33818193

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said the problem "surpasses" Greece's abilities, and that his country's economic problems meant it was facing a humanitarian "crisis within a crisis".   "Now we will find out whether solidarity in Europe is real"

Yep a bankrupt country thrown to the wolves by the most prosperous one ....after she fecked it up even more she the bribed Turkey with 3.5 billion pound of other countries money to help her try and revers the problem she had caused ....noone from the other member states had a say in anything 

[smash]

11 minutes ago, Richmond said:

Until Brexit I had little idea what the EU did. I often wondered who these MEPs I was asked to vote for did or why I was being asked to vote for them. The EU and even Europe didn't feature much, if at all, in my day is to day life. I wasn't taught anything about it really at school, elections were pretty much a footnote in my day to day life. The French were the French, the Germans the Germans and the British the British. I wonder if it is just me living in some isolated bubble or if this is more widespread.

I should imagine that your experience/perspective on it is largely similar to many in the UK. Yet it appears that for the same people the referdum was the ultimate expression of democracy and "unelected beaurocrats" is a turn off phrase that evokes such visceral emotion in people. And everybody just loves to love Monsieur Farage.

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, long time lurking said:

Yep a bankrupt country thrown to the wolves by the most prosperous one ....after she fecked it up even more she the bribed Turkey with 3.5 billion pound of other countries money to help her try and revers the problem she had caused ....noone from the other member states had a say in anything 

You don't think that Merkel's invitation was the opposite of throwing Greece to the wolves?  Do you think she should have said, "Sorry mate - Dublin convention innit.  It's your problem."

[long time lurking]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

You don't think that Merkel's invitation was the opposite of throwing Greece to the wolves?  Do you think she should have said, "Sorry mate - Dublin convention innit.  It's your problem."

No not realy ...are you saying they no longer have a problem

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, long time lurking said:

No not realy ...are you saying they no longer have a problem

The problems would have been 100 times worse if Merkel had not intervened and washed her hands of it.

[long time lurking]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

The problems would have been 100 times worse if Merkel had not intervened and washed her hands of it.

Possibly ,but what right did she have to do this when theres FMO within the other 27 states  to deffend her actions says it all realy

[spyguy]

9 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

Well, you have touched on another of the manifold reasons why I voted Leave despite having all the characteristics of your typical Remain voter....The lack of a functioning 'demos'. Apart from the fundamental linguistic and cultural issues of sharing a government and 'Parliament', our media totally ignored the day to day goings on in the EU and i'm looking at you here BBC so it's a bit rich to complain now. When you all send literally hundreds of people to cover the US elections because it is 'easy' and virtually none to Europe down the years, no wonder people feel detached from it. When I lived in Holland, they were always reporting on events and issues in the EU as one would expect.

Aside from that, at least you sort of hope our representatives in Parliament have the best interests of the country at heart, in Europe everyone is trying to grab as much as they can (off you).

Us is *big*, exciting, lots of shopping.  loads of food, lots to do, no need to speak anyting but Engilish.

EU is Brussels. Small. OK if you like Chocolate and mussels.

 

[thecrashingisles]

1 minute ago, long time lurking said:

Possibly ,but what right did she have to do this when theres FMO within the other 27 states  to deffend her actions says it all realy

I'm just suggesting that we need to keep it in proportion instead of acting like she's some mad enemy of the people.  It was a very difficult situation that wasn't caused by her and she did her best to bring it under control in a managed way.

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, spyguy said:

Us is *big*, exciting, lots of shopping.  loads of food, lots to do, no need to speak anyting but Engilish.

EU is Brussels. Small. OK if you like Chocolate and mussels.

Has this been the fatal flaw of the European project all along?  That they put the institutions in a boring city?

The Parliament and Commission should have been put on the French Riviera so that journalists would have flocked to cover it.

[GrizzlyDave]

1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

Q4 2007 £1 = €1.436595

Q4 2015 £1 = €1.366313

So over the period in question the Pound fell against the Euro, which by your logic gives us an advantage over Germany, so what gives?

That's irrelevant. The Euro is weakened by med economies. If the DM was still going - it would be much stronger, and this would weaken Germany's trade position.

I can only postulate that the UKs growth has been powered in part by wage suppression. Cheap EE labour has no doubt played its part...

Edited April 17, 2017 by GrizzlyDave

[GrizzlyDave]

20 minutes ago, hotairmail said:

How about a big buzzy city like London or Paris or Madrid. That would have been more like it.

Maybe the parliament should move to each EU27 country every time the presidency switches? ?

[Richmond]

34 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Despite not feeling it in the sense of it being a conscious part of your identity, do you accept on an intellectual level that you are European?

I don't think even the most ardent Europhiles see Europe as the kind of place where people will ever or should ever chant the equivalent of "U.S.A." at sporting events.  But I don't think that kind of thing is necessary to have a cohesive and successful EU.

I don't know about being European, but we are intrinsically linked to Europe unlike the rest of the world (though technology is changing that). What I do know is that they are our closest neighbours and we have a long history of sacrifice (as do all European nations) maintaining the balance of power. We have never been able to ignore Europe.

If you go back to the age of monarchy I would say the ruling elite considered themselves Europeans. Queen Victoria was the grandmother of Europe, further back the aristocracy spoke French across Europe (and Russia). They intermarried and although they often fell into bickering they did still see themselves as the defenders of European civilisation against the 'uncivilised' rest of world. The lower classes were probably more nationalistic, due to wars been European nations, but I think they would have considered European civilisation as being superior to the rest of the world. So they would probably consider themselves European in the vein you suggest. 

But since then I would say the idea of 'European' has been warped by the Cold War. I would probably say now that I would identify more closely with NATO or perhaps even wider to include ideologically similar nations such as Australia and New Zealand. Sadly it is still us vs them.

[Byron]

3 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

Can I ask you a question in return?

Do you feel that there is any point at which the identities English, British and European blur and become mixed?  After all, the English are ethnically mainly from the continent as opposed to the Celts who have a longer heritage in the British Isles.  The cultural and political history of Britain is deeply interwoven with the rest of Europe.  We wouldn't be what we are otherwise.

If you try really, really hard, can you imagine why some of us who are 100% British might be absolutely comfortable with the idea that Europe does have a political dimension and the rightful place of the UK is as part of it?

Where I live in Wales, even English immigrants are not welcome.

If you have children, do not move to North Wales unless they speak Welsh or you can afford to pay for private education because all council  schools use 100% Welsh.

The UK itself is not as homogenous as you seem to think, let alone Europe.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Byron

[thecrashingisles]

9 minutes ago, Byron said:

Where I live in Wales, even English immigrants are not welcome.

If you have children, do not move to North Wales unless they speak Welsh or you can afford to pay for private education because all council  schools use 100% Welsh.

The UK itself is not as homogenous as you seem to think, let alone Europe.

Err, where do you get that I think the UK is homogeneous?  In fact I said precisely the opposite in the post you replied to.

[Digsby]

9 hours ago, Futuroid said:

There wasn't anybody stopping you or anyone else asking questions before the referendum.

If the Leave campaign (it's in capitals because I'm using a shortened version of Vote Leave and it's a proper noun) didn't provide any answers, well, perhaps to many of us that was an indicator that they didn't have any...

The sad truth is that many people like simplicity. They find the world and all it's choices bewildering. Not to mention that when you don't describe how Brexit is going to look in real life, people can fill it with their own versions, their own fantasies. What is more worrying is your own government is still not prepared to put flesh on the bones of what Britain outside the EU would be like.

Or is "Brexit means Brexit" really enough to satisfy the mind of most Leave voters? 

I did ask questions, I asked God how I should vote and he told me to vote to leave. Nah, only kidding. Ask yourself the question though, if I weren't kidding, would it be an acceptable answer for you?

I don't see how you can have a case to put it to me that I did not ask questions, nor anyone else. The only basis I see is that you found the answers unacceptable and that was grounds enough to vote to remain and you cannot fathom why anybody else faced with the same answers would do the opposite, therefore you conclude that they couldn't have asked the right questions, or any at all.

Besides, given that Googles correct prediction of the outcome was based on the number of searches for "what would leaving the EU mean" or thereabouts, it's safe to assume that the question was being asked (I think we can also assume that the post referendum surge in "what is the EU" says more about those who didn't vote).

Consider the contex, though. By the time the campaign proper started, Vote Leave comprised the original Tory led Vote Leave group who applied to the Electoral Commision for, and won (don't get me started on that can of worms) designation as the official campaign for leaving, plus the other two who lost, Grassroots Out and the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition, plus Leave.EU and a host of other groups and parties, representing a huge range of opinion and who were at each others throats over the direction of the campaign and allegations of underrepresenation. Even if Vote Leave had the answer, they couldn't have given it for fear of causing disintegration. They didn't as it turns out, but that doesn't invalidate the point that it shouldn't have come as a surprise that they couldn't answer the question at the time - let's steer clear of rewriting history.

BS (my acronym for Britain Stronger in Europe) attempted to use this weakness against Vote Leave with considerable, but not enough, success. But they could not give any less vague an answer themselves because while they took the sensible strategy of admitting that the EU is not perfect, they failed to put forward a coherent plan on how the EU could be made perfect or their vision of what a perfect EU would look like.

Thus the arguments reduced to "at least we'd have a seat at the table" versus "at least we could sit at another table", neither of which were much use, and boiling down to "a small step into the unknown" or "a large step into the unknown".

You make an excellent point re many people liking simplicity. I would extend that to say that all people like simplicity, while some can handle complexity and some cannot. Some people crave uniformity and regimen, while others need to feel in control. Some of recognise that life is not simple, or uniform, regimented or controllable as much as we might like it to be, and so these things are illusions which we can choose to either embrace or reject. I choose reject when I can, but I'm not under the ultimate illusion that I am not under any illusions, being the only illusion I can be absolutely 100% certain of not being under.

I accept your defence if your capitalisation of "Leave" as shorthand for "Vote Leave" and therefore as a proper noun the capitalisation is correct, but you leave me in a quandary. As Vote Leave was not an option on the ballot paper, it is impossible for anybody to have voted for them, so if "Leave" signifies Vote Leave, then who does "Leave voters" signify? Not me, so I wouldn't presume to be able to answer on their behalf, whatever figment of your imagination they are.

If you made the mistake of confusing those who voted to leave with the campaign for that result, then I imagine that "Brexit means Brexit" probably is enough to satisfy the mind of some leave voters, just as "Remain means Remain" would be enough to satisfy the mind of some who voted to remain.

Does it satisfy my mind? No of course not. I voted for something that was not on the menu, remember? It means nothing more to me than "Not-steak means not-steak" would.