Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[14stFlyer]

Rude words, name calling, a little abuse, and almost no attempt from either side to see the the other’s point of view. This thread has been a lot of fun tonight! 
 

At the risk of abuse from both sides, here is how I see it. 
 

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters. In his mind, all that has happened is that we have, because of some irreconcilable differences, and the damage that was being caused to our communities in the UK, been forced to leave the EU club. This will allow our communities to recover, whist not significantly affecting our prosperity and future relationships, so what is all the fuss about?  

The smart, successful, and genuine good egg Bob8, cannot understand why KZB wanted to leave the EU in the first place. He sees no benefits possible in leaving the EU, and only sees the damage being caused. All Bob8 can see is the loss of rights to U.K. citizens, the loss of opportunities for our children, the damage to our wealth and business lives, and the decline of our relationships and position within our European Family. And, underneath, he is actually quite emotional about it...

       .....  I know I am.  

[pig]

2 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

Rude words, name calling, a little abuse, and almost no attempt from either side to see the the other’s point of view. This thread has been a lot of fun tonight! 
 

At the risk of abuse from both sides, here is how I see it. 
 

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters. In his mind, all that has happened is that we have, because of some irreconcilable differences, and the damage that was being caused to our communities in the UK, been forced to leave the EU club. This will allow our communities to recover, whist not significantly affecting our prosperity and future relationships, so what is all the fuss about?  

The smart, successful, and genuine good egg Bob8, cannot understand why KZB wanted to leave the EU in the first place. He sees no benefits possible in leaving the EU, and only sees the damage being caused. All Bob8 can see is the loss of rights to U.K. citizens, the loss of opportunities for our children, the damage to our wealth and business lives, and the decline of our relationships and position within our European Family. And, underneath, he is actually quite emotional about it...

       .....  I know I am.  

Its not that sort of emotion thats disturbing. After four years of going round the houses with this, up and down, left right, x-rayed, ultrasound mri its the emotion that still insists on trying to distort facts and logic. We left a year ago so now its kind of becoming fascinating again as to why.

[pig]

17 minutes ago, satsuma said:

You were living in the posh street, we lived on toenail clippings and old newspapers, got by on stiff upper lip and pluck.  

True - we were quite decadent in comparison, we were using toenail clippings as soup spoons.

[IMHAL]

20 minutes ago, satsuma said:

Ah we dreamed of living in a cave, no roof on our house ya see.  Couldn’t even keep the rain off with the newspapers as we’d eaten them all

You had rain? You lucky sod. Member of the elite is what you are.      

 

[IMHAL]

30 minutes ago, 14stFlyer said:

Rude words, name calling, a little abuse, and almost no attempt from either side to see the the other’s point of view. This thread has been a lot of fun tonight! 
 

At the risk of abuse from both sides, here is how I see it. 
 

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters. In his mind, all that has happened is that we have, because of some irreconcilable differences, and the damage that was being caused to our communities in the UK, been forced to leave the EU club. This will allow our communities to recover, whist not significantly affecting our prosperity and future relationships, so what is all the fuss about?  

The smart, successful, and genuine good egg Bob8, cannot understand why KZB wanted to leave the EU in the first place. He sees no benefits possible in leaving the EU, and only sees the damage being caused. All Bob8 can see is the loss of rights to U.K. citizens, the loss of opportunities for our children, the damage to our wealth and business lives, and the decline of our relationships and position within our European Family. And, underneath, he is actually quite emotional about it...

       .....  I know I am.  

KZB has bought into the view that our problems stem from membership of the EU....with no evidence... remainers refute that....with evidence. I can't see how you can reconcile the two.

[NobodyInParticular]

8 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters.  

But the emotion kzb sees is love for the EU, rather than anger at the damage done to the country. 

I'm currently waiting for equipment delivery at work. Items help up due to customs delays... This certainly adds to my stress level. 

[winkie]

The grass, maize and turnips we grow to feed cattle, will have to grow to feed ourselves......use the land in a more productive way to feed the nation.

[winkie]

Plastic greenhouses, covering our green and pleasant land.......

[winkie]

.....plus acres of solar panels?

[winkie]

.......and wind turbines.

[satsuma]

38 minutes ago, winkie said:

The grass, maize and turnips we grow to feed cattle, will have to grow to feed ourselves......use the land in a more productive way to feed the nation.

You will be getting the lefties excited, they will be having a wet dream about that tonight, no more nasty eating of animals

[Bob8]

9 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

Rude words, name calling, a little abuse, and almost no attempt from either side to see the the other’s point of view. This thread has been a lot of fun tonight!

At the risk of abuse from both sides, here is how I see it.

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters. In his mind, all that has happened is that we have, because of some irreconcilable differences, and the damage that was being caused to our communities in the UK, been forced to leave the EU club. This will allow our communities to recover, whist not significantly affecting our prosperity and future relationships, so what is all the fuss about?  

The smart, successful, and genuine good egg Bob8, cannot understand why KZB wanted to leave the EU in the first place. He sees no benefits possible in leaving the EU, and only sees the damage being caused. All Bob8 can see is the loss of rights to U.K. citizens, the loss of opportunities for our children, the damage to our wealth and business lives, and the decline of our relationships and position within our European Family. And, underneath, he is actually quite emotional about it...

       .....  I know I am.  

I disagree with everything in bold.

My argument that the way we voted is best predicted not by smarts but by demographic group. If you see the modern world and approach has benefitted people like you, then you are likely to be a remainer. If you think the modern world and its approach has stripped respect for people like you, then you are likely to be a leaver.

KZB sees his side as rational and Remainers are deluded. I see both sides as irrational.

My background is a state school chap from a mining town. I am lucky enough to be highly qualified and have a good career across the world. I am still in middle age rather than older, so you would predict I would be a remainer. Had I not been lucy enough to be qualified and struggled, you would predict that as a middle ages man, I would be a leaver. Being rational or not is not the difference, the second version of me would see the 1970's as a golden age to return to, where I would get more respect.

Having worked in the USA, I was part of a massive and integrated national market. In Europe, trade is difficult as there are huge cultural, legal and language barriers. That the olive oil is cheap, excellent and plentiful in Vigo and the opposite in Copenhagen is bonkers. I see the EU as a necessary institution, as European nations are crammed together and our destinies linked whether we have the EU or not. This messy situation means rough compromises; if the EU was fully governed by national Governments, it would have less direct democracy, if the EU had a full democratic mandate it would undermine national Governments. Free trade means agreeing on minimum standards, which involves compromise and often a messy political one. The small nations thought the big three (including the UK) ran everything and every nation thinks it is the only one that follows the rules.

KZB's reaction to that was that I am not rational like him and just think the EU is perfect

[winkie]

11 minutes ago, satsuma said:

You will be getting the lefties excited, they will be having a wet dream about that tonight, no more nasty eating of animals

It looks so much nicer animals grazing on beautiful pastures......a lot of nice meat to eat and milk to drink for ourselves, perhaps there is an alternative market for it?.... meat, fewer eating it at all levels....very high energy to produce.......can see us eating less of it in the west..... plants are in fashion at the moment.

[satsuma]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I disagree with everything in bold.

My argument that the way we voted is best predicted not by smarts but by demographic group. If you see the modern world and approach has benefitted people like you, then you are likely to be a remainer. If you think the modern world and its approach has stripped respect for people like you, then you are likely to be a leaver.

KZB sees his side as rational and Remainers are deluded. I see both sides as irrational.

My background is a state school chap from a mining town. I am lucky enough to be highly qualified and have a good career across the world. I am still in middle age rather than older, so you would predict I would be a remainer. Had I not been lucy enough to be qualified and struggled, you would predict that as a middle ages man, I would be a leaver. Being rational or not is not the difference, the second version of me would see the 1970's as a golden age to return to, where I would get more respect.

Having worked in the USA, I was part of a massive and integrated national market. In Europe, trade is difficult as there are huge cultural, legal and language barriers. That the olive oil is cheap, excellent and plentiful in Vigo and the opposite in Copenhagen is bonkers. I see the EU as a necessary institution, as European nations are crammed together and our destinies linked whether we have the EU or not. This messy situation means rough compromises; if the EU was fully governed by national Governments, it would have less direct democracy, if the EU had a full democratic mandate it would undermine national Governments. Free trade means agreeing on minimum standards, which involves compromise and often a messy political one. The small nations thought the big three (including the UK) ran everything and every nation thinks it is the only one that follows the rules.

KZB's reaction to that was that I am not rational like him and just think the EU is perfect

It’s funny but I think people voted to leave for the wrong reasons and I think you explain it very well here.  Personally the EU has been very good for me, I have no doubt it’s made my life easier.  However, the leave voters I know tend to be in competition with foreigners for jobs, housing and/or schools.  That and a nostalgia for Britannia rules the waves.  A reason to leave would be getting rid of red tape but it’s not the reason people voted leave.  

[satsuma]

3 minutes ago, winkie said:

It looks so much nicer animals grazing on beautiful pastures......a lot of nice meat to eat and milk to drink for ourselves, perhaps there is an alternative market for it?.... meat, fewer eating it at all levels....very high energy to produce.......can see us eating less of it in the west..... plants are in fashion at the moment.

Plenty of money in vegan food at the moment.  Now if you could turn a turnip into a tasty feed you would be a rich man (this time next year Rodney).

[winkie]

4 minutes ago, satsuma said:

It’s funny but I think people voted to leave for the wrong reasons and I think you explain it very well here.  Personally the EU has been very good for me, I have no doubt it’s made my life easier.  However, the leave voters I know tend to be in competition with foreigners for jobs, housing and/or schools.  That and a nostalgia for Britannia rules the waves.  A reason to leave would be getting rid of red tape but it’s not the reason people voted leave.  

I think people looked to those below them to blame, taking their jobs away, taking their homes away, undercutting their income.....etc. Instead of focusing on those above them who encouraged it, enabled it to happen and profited from it.....

[winkie]

5 minutes ago, satsuma said:

Plenty of money in vegan food at the moment.  Now if you could turn a turnip into a tasty feed you would be a rich man (this time next year Rodney).

Just switch the turnip for some tasty beans.....simples.

[Bob8]

14 minutes ago, satsuma said:

It’s funny but I think people voted to leave for the wrong reasons and I think you explain it very well here.  Personally the EU has been very good for me, I have no doubt it’s made my life easier.  However, the leave voters I know tend to be in competition with foreigners for jobs, housing and/or schools.  That and a nostalgia for Britannia rules the waves.  A reason to leave would be getting rid of red tape but it’s not the reason people voted leave.  

I use the comparison with evolution and creationism.

We believe in evolution for the same reason people believe in creationism. We trust the people who told us. I went through a scientific career, so to have continued to believe in creationism (had I done so) would have been daft, but most evolutionists are right by coincidence.

Equally, Remain is looking more and more correct, but it is right by coincidence.

 

[Pop321]

10 hours ago, 14stFlyer said:

Rude words, name calling, a little abuse, and almost no attempt from either side to see the the other’s point of view. This thread has been a lot of fun tonight! 
 

At the risk of abuse from both sides, here is how I see it. 
 

The valiant KZB cannot understand the emotional response he is witnessing in some remain voters. In his mind, all that has happened is that we have, because of some irreconcilable differences, and the damage that was being caused to our communities in the UK, been forced to leave the EU club. This will allow our communities to recover, whist not significantly affecting our prosperity and future relationships, so what is all the fuss about?  

The smart, successful, and genuine good egg Bob8, cannot understand why KZB wanted to leave the EU in the first place. He sees no benefits possible in leaving the EU, and only sees the damage being caused. All Bob8 can see is the loss of rights to U.K. citizens, the loss of opportunities for our children, the damage to our wealth and business lives, and the decline of our relationships and position within our European Family. And, underneath, he is actually quite emotional about it...

       .....  I know I am.  

 

33 minutes ago, satsuma said:

You will be getting the lefties excited, they will be having a wet dream about that tonight, no more nasty eating of animals

I haven’t followed Brexit thread for a few months because it was two sides throwing insults, to be fair sometimes relevant points but never a consensus or acknowledgment from one side to the other.  

Visited today because I have just removed myself from the Bitcoin thread....and it reminded me of the Brexit arguments. 

My job for the last 20 years was all about judging situations and bringing consensus...sometimes it wasn’t ‘an agreed middle ground’ but rather a position where both sides felt they had been heard and the outcome seemed fair enough to all. Not some HR type role this was a business role and my balance was commercial risk v reward  

Brexit has never managed to bring any feeling of consensus with both sides absolutely certain they are right.

The main thing most agree on is Tories  (or pseudo New Labour left at a push) at least are better than the left. Jeremy was a near miss...apparently according to Twitter and the media. Phew, last thing we wanted was communism (sarcasm). Ps that isn’t a Brexit point...Labours position was as bad as anyone’s.   

That’s important we stay right because it means I can vote and advocate a left liberal position without having to really worry about it becoming a reality. Allows me to improve my financial position each year, legally minimise tax and benefit on the shirt tails of the big boys and keep a relatively clear conscience (it’s what the people voted for, not me) without having to worry about being right or wrong.

[Pop321]

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I use the comparison with evolution and creationism.

We believe in evolution for the same reason people believe in creationism. We trust the people who told us. I went through a scientific career, so to have continued to believe in creationism (had I done so) would have been daft, but most evolutionists are right by coincidence.

Equally, Remain is looking more and more correct, but it is right by coincidence.

 

Caveat last post. I see you are trying to draw a more middle position and the example above is true. 

I studied physics and maths. Nowhere did I learn of the non existence or the existence of a creator. Some find a creator helpful and in the same way we learn more and more it only begs bigger questions. We are no more advance in terms of that really big question than we were 5000 years ago. 

Reality is someone can stare at a tree and acknowledge its beauty, it’s made up of cells, atoms and came from an evolutionary process but still believe that is the mechanics used by a creator. Others can see equal beauty without that creator.

Brian Cox wonderfully explains that with an element is awe whereas Stephen Hawkins always thought he was right (no god, just maths) despite the fact our human viewpoint from this little spec of dust spinning in a massive universe is so restrictive.

Ps..I absolutely separate existence a creator and religion, or stories in manuscripts. That’s different again...although to be fair religions do tend to say ‘let’s all be nice to each other’ and some religious leaders tend to then twist scripts for their own usage. Different subject...whoosh I am off thread 😆

Anyhoo....I think Brexit now seems a trickier subject to discuss than a creator existence or religion or house prices. Best kept away from at dinner parties 😆😆 
 

 

[IMHAL]

24 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

My job for the last 20 years was all about judging situations and bringing consensus...sometimes it wasn’t ‘an agreed middle ground’ but rather a position where both sides felt they had been heard and the outcome seemed fair enough to all. Not some HR type role this was a business role and my balance was commercial risk v reward  

If you stick around long enough you will see that remainers have been trying to tease out what the rewards are whilst acknowledging that there are real risks and real costs involved. Leavers are generally more woolly about the rewards, expect that they will materialise sometime, maybe, have no plan for that to happen and don't acknowledge the risks or the costs.

So, since you do this for a living ....you can sort it out.  

24 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

Brexit has never managed to bring any feeling of consensus with both sides absolutely certain they are right.

See above.

 

[micawber]

Nearly 6000 pages of a few (probably) blokes enjoying some rough and tumble banter with no hope of achieving anything constructive.

[Pop321]

6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

So, since you do this for a living ....you can sort it out.  

 

No problem....I can use my parenting skills. Just get them together and ask them to hug....works a dream. (until you leave them again). I acknowledge feelings run high for many and its not a joking matter.

I guess I am now in the moving forward camp....so who was right and who was wrong feels like history but understand why for some that cant be the case. 

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, satsuma said:

It’s funny but I think people voted to leave for the wrong reasons and I think you explain it very well here.  Personally the EU has been very good for me, I have no doubt it’s made my life easier.  However, the leave voters I know tend to be in competition with foreigners for jobs, housing and/or schools.  That and a nostalgia for Britannia rules the waves.  A reason to leave would be getting rid of red tape but it’s not the reason people voted leave.  

Quite.

Clearly, there will have to be more red tape after brexit. I think people wanted one option, but did not know why, which is why the argument was incoherent.

51 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

Caveat last post. I see you are trying to draw a more middle position and the example above is true. 

I studied physics and maths. Nowhere did I learn of the non existence or the existence of a creator. Some find a creator helpful and in the same way we learn more and more it only begs bigger questions. We are no more advance in terms of that really big question than we were 5000 years ago. 

Reality is someone can stare at a tree and acknowledge its beauty, it’s made up of cells, atoms and came from an evolutionary process but still believe that is the mechanics used by a creator. Others can see equal beauty without that creator.

Brian Cox wonderfully explains that with an element is awe whereas Stephen Hawkins always thought he was right (no god, just maths) despite the fact our human viewpoint from this little spec of dust spinning in a massive universe is so restrictive.

Ps..I absolutely separate existence a creator and religion, or stories in manuscripts. That’s different again...although to be fair religions do tend to say ‘let’s all be nice to each other’ and some religious leaders tend to then twist scripts for their own usage. Different subject...whoosh I am off thread 😆

Anyhoo....I think Brexit now seems a trickier subject to discuss than a creator existence or religion or house prices. Best kept away from at dinner parties 😆😆

My main objection to creationism is that it takes incredible stories, about the birth of consciousness (first creation story), the birth of self awareness (Adam and Eve) and the human tendency to build arbitary human moralities and hierarchies (Tower of Babel) and reduce is to a stupid, ill-informed attempt natural history.

[IMHAL]

2 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

No problem....I can use my parenting skills. Just get them together and ask them to hug....works a dream. (until you leave them again). I acknowledge feelings run high for many and its not a joking matter.

I guess I am now in the moving forward camp....so who was right and who was wrong feels like history but understand why for some that cant be the case. 

We are all in the moving forward camp either enthusiastically, begrudgingly or reluctantly because there is no choice.

I does pay to examine why we ended up here tho...otherwise we (collective) will never understand how we ended up in a place where the Brexit that was delivered would have only been supported by a minority if that was the only Brexit option in the referendum. ie either by design or accident Brexit has delivered an outcome that did not reflect the majority preference at the time of the referendum.

That aside, I assert that a common ground can only be found if the goals of Brexit are made clear and the risks involved are acknowledged. From there it is possible to trade reward for risk and find a common position. My feeling is that Brexiteers are still not in that position.