Mikhail Liebenstein Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Will Brexiters turn down an EU vaccine? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/04/uk-ponders-joining-eus-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Neapolitan said: That’s not enough, I am afraid. Sentiment in Bruxelles in turning, the idea that the EU is somehow capable of managing the complexity of the interactions between 27 states and 450 million people simply looking at Bruxelles was always short lived and Brexit was a wake-up call. Countries are right now expanding their views and are “going global”. Take a look at the Mar Portugal plan or the recent developments in Italy re the Silk Road. Talking about the Portuguese and Italian plan’s its obvious that they can only work if you have a functioning common market behind you. So in order to rejoin, the UK needs a plan, and needs to tell the 27 what the plan is. Common Market access, Shenghen and Euro is not enough. I have in mind what the UK could be. Surely a port of access for the Commonwealth and America. However, it must be clear it can’t be the only port of access. The island of Britain is in a very sweet geo position to become a global platform to serve those markets and interface with Northern Europe. It can be the final call before a raw material from Northern Europe is turned into a good and then shipped somewhere else, and of course the other way round. Become the European logistic and manufacturing platform to America and part of Commonwealth. That’s it. Services also, but it must be clear to the law maker that a Silicon Valley in Europe is simply non possible and they should not follow this dream. The country here will need high-specialization, and that means lower jobs in general in the wider sector, but much safer and protected. The UK needs to show commitment towards these goals, and several reforms will be needed at multiple levels. The country will need to invest in port facilities, infrastructures and education. This is a completely change of mindset for the country, as such, I do not believe it would happen anytime soon. So any British grandchildren we may have, all so far are French nationals, are destined to live in a third world country. Happily, all our children benefit from dual nationality and one almost certainly, by marriage and domicile, qualifies for French citizenship too. Edited July 4, 2020 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHPCinTheUK Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: So any British grandchildren we may have, all so far are French nationals, are destined to live in a third world country. If people keeps thinking that any sort of Empire 2.0 is possible, I am afraid that’s the outcome. If I were a northerner I would probably think the plan is utterly rubbish when wealthy markets are just a couple of hours flight from my airports, less than a day from my ports. The North natural space is Scandinavia, Benelux the Baltic. Can the Uk import strawberries from South Africa at a lower price using old Commonwealth ties? Surely it can. However, the strawberries have to be used to make jams and other stuffs that bring in higher margins and sell them to their most closer markets. Why hasn’t the UK never explored these opportunities, I do not know. Edited July 4, 2020 by Neapolitan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHorseWaits-NoMore Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Good ideas, its almost as if the real economy for the little people is what really matters and not corperate interests, tax havens and financial skulduggery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 7 hours ago, crouch said: Slow motion - yes, car crash - debateable. With regard to Covid this could go either way with an increasing emphasis on local supply chains. You can debate anything. Whether falling out of an exploding plane at 20,000ft without a parachute will kill you is debatable as at least one person has done this and survived. Likewise it is debatable whether Brexit will be the expected car crash but still highly likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 8 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: You can debate anything. Whether falling out of an exploding plane at 20,000ft without a parachute will kill you is debatable as at least one person has done this and survived. Likewise it is debatable whether Brexit will be the expected car crash but still highly likely. All the logic points to that being the case. Those arguing for 'economic actors' to magically produce a better result when the constraints posed on them are tighter than the situation within the EU are, at best, just dreamers, but most probably snake oil salesmen and scammers who are purposefully deceiving others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 On 03/07/2020 at 09:23, crouch said: What is your view on the Holocaust? I am against it. Are you using it as a thing that did not have specific aims and was not measurable? Because that would be mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 9 hours ago, crouch said: Emotive phrases that are just assumptions. You are assuming what requires to be demonstrated - that is the point. Brexit means Brexit! WIll of the People! You are right, referring to brexit as a project with no specified criteria or success criteria, or timeline would be be really stupid. Thickie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byron Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 14 hours ago, Bruce Banner said: Yet all the recent polls show that a sizeable majority of the population now want to rejoin the EU, yet you jokers want to lock us, our children, and our grandchildren out of the EU for 50 years, unbelievable arrogance! What's more, we are now suffering from the incompetence of a government led by proven liars. Opinion Polls? Allow me to scoff. Ask Hilary Clinton and David Cameron about them. The only thing that counts is a real vote, you know like the Brexit vote, the EU election and the 2019 GE. Where was this 'sizeable majority' then? If what the polls claim is correct, why haven't a large bunch of MPs jumped on the bandwagon? You know people like Dominic Grievous, Anna Subry, Chukka Umunha, Jo Swinson? Oh that's right, chucked out on their arses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Byron said: Opinion Polls? Allow me to scoff. Ask Hilary Clinton and David Cameron about them. The only thing that counts is a real vote, you know like the Brexit vote, the EU election and the 2019 GE. Where was this 'sizeable majority' then? If what the polls claim is correct, why haven't a large bunch of MPs jumped on the bandwagon? You know people like Dominic Grievous, Anna Subry, Chukka Umunha, Jo Swinson? Oh that's right, chucked out on their arses. Actually, I think even most remainers are just plain sick of Brexit, sick of not knowing what Brexit is or what it will become, sick of both remainers and leavers being divided by the issue. Most just want to see an end to it. In that spirit I think most will wait to see what happens as there is no choice in the matter. But, if Brexit turns our to be harmful, then i think you will see a backlash, not in 50yrs or 25yrs....but much much sooner than that. If Brexit means being poorer, my guess is that the majority will seek a change of direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Byron said: the 2019 GE. Where was this 'sizeable majority' then? 56% of voters voted again the Conservatives in the 2019 GE. Edited July 5, 2020 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 19 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Will Brexiters turn down an EU vaccine? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/04/uk-ponders-joining-eus-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme Why would the Brexit gov want to be part of a bloc that would secure greater purchasing power for a covid19 vaccine? Totally ridiculous.... the thought of cooperating for mutual benefit.....absurd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Actually, I think even most remainers are just plain sick of Brexit, sick of not knowing what Brexit is or what it will become, sick of both remainers and leavers being divided by the issue. Most just want to see an end to it. In that spirit I think most will wait to see what happens as there is no choice in the matter. But, if Brexit turns our to be harmful, then i think you will see a backlash, not in 50yrs or 25yrs....but much much sooner than that. If Brexit means being poorer, my guess is that the majority will seek a change of direction. Interesting use of “if”, I’d have used “now as” because it is fully clear Brexit has failed. Apparently 2/3rds already want the UK to return. If this gets even uglier, it could well end up with Fatso being hung from the canopy of a petrol station. Edited July 5, 2020 by Mikhail Liebenstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Interesting use of “if”, I’d have used “now as” because it is fully clear Brexit has failed. Apparently 2/3rds already want the UK to return. If this gets even uglier, it could well end up with Fatso being hung from the canopy of a petrol station. Indeed, but the forum Brexiteers all come out of the woodwork to dispute the accuracy of opinion polls whenever we mention them. What we need is a Rejoin referendum, but I'm sure they'd be against that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Interesting use of “if”, I’d have used “now as” because it is fully clear Brexit has failed. Apparently 2/3rds already want the UK to return. If this gets even uglier, it could well end up with Fatso being hung from the canopy of a petrol station. ? A fundamentalist Remainer states (and I believe you do believe this with all sincerity) that the opposing side's belief is the wrong one. It would be remiss for me not to ask for the 'fully clear' evidence that Brexit has failed. It sounds damning whatever it is and if it's as good evidence as it sounds like it would even change my mind on the whole situation..being 'fully clear' and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Indeed, but the forum Brexiteers all come out of the woodwork to dispute the accuracy of opinion polls whenever we mention them. What we need is a Rejoin referendum, but I'm sure they'd be against that too. 3 minutes ago, Huggy said: ? A fundamentalist Remainer states (and I believe you do believe this with all sincerity) that the opposing side's belief is the wrong one. It would be remiss for me not to ask for the 'fully clear' evidence that Brexit has failed. It sounds damning whatever it is and if it's as good evidence as it sounds like it would even change my mind on the whole situation..being 'fully clear' and all that. QED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Huggy said: ? A fundamentalist Remainer states (and I believe you do believe this with all sincerity) that the opposing side's belief is the wrong one. It would be remiss for me not to ask for the 'fully clear' evidence that Brexit has failed. It sounds damning whatever it is and if it's as good evidence as it sounds like it would even change my mind on the whole situation..being 'fully clear' and all that. It’s the easiest deal in history and nobody has said we are leaving the single market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Indeed, but the forum Brexiteers all come out of the woodwork to dispute the accuracy of opinion polls whenever we mention them. What we need is a Rejoin referendum, but I'm sure they'd be against that too. No not at all. We need these votes every 20-30+ years. No point in having the opinions of people decades ago (on something that materially changed in the interim too) being forced on the lives of people now. We have a vote, we enact that vote, we work with it for a few decades, then we have a rejoin referendum. After the rejoin referendum in the 2050s or whatever it is, we then enact the result even if we don't agree with it. I quite like people being given the choice for their own futures. I really do like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: QED Opinion polls are this 'evidence' that it has failed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 48 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Interesting use of “if”, I’d have used “now as” because it is fully clear Brexit has failed. Apparently 2/3rds already want the UK to return. If this gets even uglier, it could well end up with Fatso being hung from the canopy of a petrol station. Rejecting Brexit and the direction it is taking us in will be down to the people. My view is that the realisation of what Brexit means will not be felt until we have exited the transition period. I am quite sure that there will be an economic hit, will this be large enough to sway the masses? I don't know, hence the use of 'if'. As for Brexit being seen as a success...... that is not even on the radar, not a remote possibility. The best they can hope for is damage limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dorkins said: 56% of voters voted again the Conservatives in the 2019 GE. Edited July 5, 2020 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 20 hours ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Will Brexiters turn down an EU vaccine? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/04/uk-ponders-joining-eus-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme If so really Brexiteers should be sued over this and the PPE. Twisted, sick in the head morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Huggy said: No not at all. We need these votes every 20-30+ years. No point in having the opinions of people decades ago (on something that materially changed in the interim too) being forced on the lives of people now. We have a vote, we enact that vote, we work with it for a few decades, then we have a rejoin referendum. After the rejoin referendum in the 2050s or whatever it is, we then enact the result even if we don't agree with it. I quite like people being given the choice for their own futures. I really do like it. When there is a decisive majority to join the the EU it will do what it wants. That is how a democracy works. Instead of trying to tell people when they are allowed to vote you we are strongly advised to work harder to make Brexit a success, otherwise we are destined to join the EU soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Just now, pig said: If so really Brexiteers should be sued over this and the PPE. Twisted, sick in the head morons. And spanked, hard! Evil people. And maybe even forced to go through the punishment rejoin with Euro and Schengen, overseen by BLM and Greta T just to drive the point home. That'll learn 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 minute ago, slawek said: When there is a decisive majority to join the the EU it will do what it wants. That is how a democracy works. Instead of trying to tell people when they are allowed to vote you we are strongly advised to work harder to make Brexit a success, otherwise we are destined to join the EU soon. If they'll have us, we'll need to convince the ex Eastern Bloc states. If we can't, we are destined to join the Third World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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