Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum
GreenDevil

Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

Recommended Posts

Just now, Huggy said:

I'm sad about COVID raining on the victory parade. It will cover any upsides of Brexit as well as any downsides. (Shock, horror, there might be downsides at some point!!)

Since brexiters still haven't been able to name the upsides, I think you might be fibbing.

But hi again and thanks for the continued interaction in the thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Since brexiters still haven't been able to name the upsides, I think you might be fibbing.

But hi again and thanks for the continued interaction in the thread.

(my emph) Do you read any posts on this forum? Brexit benefits include... Control of our borders - Ability to make and change our own laws - Free trade with the world (cheaper food!) - not having to pay £bn to the EU?....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, pig said:

Jeez another BBC wing-nut. As bad as the paedo-heads. Or the same lot ?

Good to see your powers of argument are as attractive and convincing as ever. Mind you, arguing for Remain is hard of you stick to facts I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, IMHAL said:

The cause of Brexit has always been our politicians blaming the EU for our own policy mistakes. Like early access for EE countries...for example...

There are lots of hot topics here and everywhere...it's called life..

And if it's not then I'm sure you can find another reason for the EU's imminent collapse....and another after that.

<my emph> yes, I'd agree that's an issue. Its easier for UK pols to pass all the issues to Brussels and then sit back. But many of the mistakes are being part of the EU (not that that exonerates UK pols, of course, especially Remainer ones)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Boris will not extend. He has a giant ego, perhaps a narcissist. He sees brexit as an opportunity to roll the dice to be recorded in history, gambling with the countries future so that he can be "the prime minister who dared". 

I dont think he'll extend either. (And I really hope not!) But Boris won a stunning election victory in Dec 2019 mainly by promising to act on the will of the British people - that is, to deliver Brexit. If Boris bottles it he's toast (not to mention undemocratic!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, dryrot said:

(my emph) Do you read any posts on this forum? Brexit benefits include... Control of our borders - Ability to make and change our own laws - Free trade with the world (cheaper food!) - not having to pay £bn to the EU?....

I could have quoted all of those and I wish I had. We've had all these debates a thousand times.

I don't deal well with abstractions when it comes to deciding between two systems that I have to live under. Otherwise I'd choose communism, because it sounds really good vs capitalism. But in practice it turns out to be awful.

  • Ending freedom of movement. I grant you this one. If people are very concerned about the people being able to move around Europe freely, then ending freedom of movement is a benefit to those people. I see it differently of course and see freedom to move around (eg. freedom of movement in the four nations of the UK) as a necessary, practical and decent thing for humans to be able to do.  Oh, and by the way, we won't have control of our borders after brexit so it is a moot argument anyway.
  • Ability to make our own laws - we already do. We make our laws via our elected representatives both at the UK and EU level. It turns out that the laws that most people care about are UK made. The EU laws are just largely irrelevant in most people's lives. But they've given this massively disproportionate negative attention. Why? What is going to be different in five or ten years time, (in practice, not in theory because we are talking about covid hiding the practical benefits)? 
  • Cheaper food - Ok, let us wait and see. Will it come at the cost of our own food industry? Will it come with reduced animal welfare standards? Do you care?
  • Paying the EU to run the club where we see benefits returned in multiples. Ending the fee to lose more money by not being a member of the club is a net loss. This argument was dead a long time ago.

 

So those are the questions we're left with. By what measure will my life be improved in five or ten years time? We're all Brits, I think some of us would like an explanation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, dryrot said:

<my emph> yes, I'd agree that's an issue. Its easier for UK pols to pass all the issues to Brussels and then sit back. But many of the mistakes are being part of the EU (not that that exonerates UK pols, of course, especially Remainer ones)

Such as what. What issue did you vote on that your elected representatives then blamed on the EU?

It always comes back to immigration. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Since brexiters still haven't been able to name the upsides, I think you might be fibbing.

But hi again and thanks for the continued interaction in the thread.

I would guess that the reality is that many Brexiters have named many upsides but you may have simply dismissed them. However, I will still state that freedom and money are two things that I love, and so I'm aiming for the next 50 years (if I'm lucky to be alive for all of that) will have much of both, simply due to Brexit.

Do you agree that more money and more freedom is good? If Brexit succeeds, and I know that you don't know if it will or won't eventually (same here too), then are they not two exceedingly good upsides? Perhaps you need upsides that are not contrary to your fundamental and 100% certain belief that Brexit only contains downsides? If that's the case then I predict you won't hear about any upsides, ever, no matter what they are.

Of course if it doesn't work, then less money and less freedom are two big downsides (if that's what happens).

Hello as well, and please don't mention it, I must also thank you for your contributions too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I would guess that the reality is that many Brexiters have named many upsides but you may have simply dismissed them.

Happens all the time - "There are no upsides that I want, or that I even understand, so there are no upsides." Self-centredness and an inability to empathise are very common. The correct reply is "no upsides that I'm interested in or have value to me therefore personally speaking it was the wrong decision" - acknowledging that different people have different views and values and that what works for some doesn't work for others. But unfortunately the widespread belief in some quarters that they are absolutely correct, anything else is inconceivable, anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't understand what they want, makes meaningful discussion impossible.

Now of course people often don't actually know what they really want, what actually works out well for them and what merely has immediate superficial appeal (which very much applies to both sides) so there's a basis for an argument there, but not pigheaded insistence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I would guess that the reality is that many Brexiters have named many upsides but you may have simply dismissed them. However, I will still state that freedom and money are two things that I love, and so I'm aiming for the next 50 years (if I'm lucky to be alive for all of that) will have much of both, simply due to Brexit.

Do you agree that more money and more freedom is good? If Brexit succeeds, and I know that you don't know if it will or won't eventually (same here too), then are they not two exceedingly good upsides? Perhaps you need upsides that are not contrary to your fundamental and 100% certain belief that Brexit only contains downsides? If that's the case then I predict you won't hear about any upsides, ever, no matter what they are.

Of course if it doesn't work, then less money and less freedom are two big downsides (if that's what happens).

Hello as well, and please don't mention it, I must also thank you for your contributions too.

Yes, they have named "upsides" but as you have just demonstrated, they are generally abstractions that dissolve into nothing. Freedom? From what? Were you oppressed? Were there things the our representatives at the EU were doing that hurt your freedom? What about the fact that the UK is a union of countries and you therefore have the same lack of freedom in the UK? 

Money is a non argument. We will be poorer outside of the EU, in fact already are. And brexiters have explicitly indicated that this is a real life price worth paying for some abstract upside.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

Happens all the time - "There are no upsides that I want, or that I even understand, so there are no upsides." Self-centredness and an inability to empathise are very common. The correct reply is "no upsides that I'm interested in or have value to me therefore personally speaking it was the wrong decision" - acknowledging that different people have different views and values and that what works for some doesn't work for others. But unfortunately the widespread belief in some quarters that they are absolutely correct, anything else is inconceivable, anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't understand what they want, makes meaningful discussion impossible.

Now of course people often don't actually know what they really want, what actually works out well for them and what merely has immediate superficial appeal (which very much applies to both sides) so there's a basis for an argument there, but not pigheaded insistence.

Yes but unfortunately the upsides of leaving the EU for you amount to "not being in the EU". 

How does one debate that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Ability to make our own laws - we already do. We make our laws via our elected representatives both at the UK and EU level. It turns out that the laws that most people care about are UK made. The EU laws are just largely irrelevant in most people's lives. But they've given this massively disproportionate negative attention. Why? What is going to be different in five or ten years time, (in practice, not in theory because we are talking about covid hiding the practical benefits)? 

The EU is a confederation so its competences are not complete so it must be true that in some respects we make our own laws.

As to saying that EU laws are largely irrelevant is nonsense. You are clearly unaware of the Factortame case which was a major legal decision on fisheries that highlighted, and for many for the first time, the supremacy of EU law over UK law.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/mar/29/landmarks-in-law-the-90s-fishing-case-that-stoked-uk-euroscepticism

This case alone, as the article says, fuelled euroscepticism in the UK as it brought home just how much sovereignty had already been conceded.

17 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Cheaper food - Ok, let us wait and see. Will it come at the cost of our own food industry? Will it come with reduced animal welfare standards? Do you care?

This is a red herring; it implies that cheaper food must of necessity mean lower animal welfare standards but this is nonsense. The EU is historically  been a high cost food producer not to guarantee animal welfare standards but to protect French farmers. The overall system which we may well revert to is what existed before we joined the EEC: to import food at (generally) lower World prices and subsidise agriculture selectively. Animal welfare is a different ( and IMV) very important issue.

22 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Paying the EU to run the club where we see benefits returned in multiples. Ending the fee to lose more money by not being a member of the club is a net loss. This argument was dead a long time ago.

What is it in particular that allows the EU to return the subscription cost in multiples? I'd be interested in the answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Happens all the time - "There are no upsides that I want, or that I even understand, so there are no upsides." Self-centredness and an inability to empathise are very common. The correct reply is "no upsides that I'm interested in or have value to me therefore personally speaking it was the wrong decision" - acknowledging that different people have different views and values and that what works for some doesn't work for others. But unfortunately the widespread belief in some quarters that they are absolutely correct, anything else is inconceivable, anyone who disagrees clearly doesn't understand what they want, makes meaningful discussion impossible.

Now of course people often don't actually know what they really want, what actually works out well for them and what merely has immediate superficial appeal (which very much applies to both sides) so there's a basis for an argument there, but not pigheaded insistence.

It's about as religious a subject one can get involved in without actually invoking the sky fairies.

I did vote Brexit because Dominic promised me several dozen virgins though. I like those almost as much as money and freedom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dryrot said:

(my emph) Do you read any posts on this forum? Brexit benefits include... Control of our borders - Ability to make and change our own laws - Free trade with the world (cheaper food!) - not having to pay £bn to the EU?....

Control our borders! - Not that one!

Change our laws! - Not those ones!

Free trade with the world! - Not those countries!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Yes, they have named "upsides" but as you have just demonstrated, they are generally abstractions that dissolve into nothing. Freedom? From what? Were you oppressed? Were there things the our representatives at the EU were doing that hurt your freedom? What about the fact that the UK is a union of countries and you therefore have the same lack of freedom in the UK? 

Money is a non argument. We will be poorer outside of the EU, in fact already are. And brexiters have explicitly indicated that this is a real life price worth paying for some abstract upside.

 

They do need to be quite abstract as there are (officially) 67m people in the country and the benefits and costs will be different for all. I could try and be specific and say I will benefit by a net £88,273.22 of today's money over the next 50 years and my freedom just due to fewer rules will be +28% over that time.

Freedom isn't either free or oppressed. There are (officially) 67m shades of grey of freedom in this country too. The EU is a rule making body, (and I fecking well know it working for an organisation based 'on the fecking continent'), and so my freedoms will increase with the lack of these many pointless rules. Some are good, most are pointless.

But then it's not just the rules, more EU citizens living here means more demand for houses for example. I don't own, and so that's one freedom I would like.

Re the last paragraph. We just don't know what effect the actions of 100's of millions of people will have over the next x years. We are a net payer into the EU, that is a cost that won't be borne in future, and I doubt the societal and cash costs of not having an immigration free for all will be higher.

As for the general economic costs or benefits? Feck knows. If I did, I would right now send a picture of my cocktail as I relaxed on the deck of this:

https://www.burgessyachts.com/en/buy-a-yacht/yachts-for-sale/octopus-00006307

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Huggy said:

It's about as religious a subject one can get involved in without actually invoking the sky fairies.

I did vote Brexit because Dominic promised me several dozen virgins though. I like those almost as much as money and freedom.

Prefer a bit of experience personally, but that's the point, we all want different things :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dryrot said:

(my emph) Do you read any posts on this forum? Brexit benefits include... Control of our borders - Ability to make and change our own laws - Free trade with the world (cheaper food!) - not having to pay £bn to the EU?....

What 'control' means to you might not be what you think 'control' works out to be.....what you think might be a law that benefits you, might turn out to be a law you wouldn't want to be......cheaper food does not always mean better food........cheap food for those that will not afford the better quality food= greater divisions......what is a £bn when we are printing and spending £bns .....reserve judgement......the proof of the pudding is in the eating, wait and see, anything that turns out to be a mistake can be corrected.....like life after CoVid nothing will ever be the same again.....better or worse, the worse can always be made to be better.;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Control our borders! - Not that one!

Change our laws! - Not those ones!

Free trade with the world! - Not those countries!

Almost as if being able to choose was part of it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our govenment got in to get bredit done......they have four years to show us if that is what we wanted done.....try before you buy.;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Freedom isn't either free or oppressed. There are (officially) 67m shades of grey of freedom in this country too. The EU is a rule making body, (and I fecking well know it working for an organisation based 'on the fecking continent'), and so my freedoms will increase with the lack of these many pointless rules. Some are good, most are pointless.

Even accepting your premise, how naive do you have to be to think that British people are incapable of making up pointless rules, or that Britain is big enough not to have to bother with the pointless rules made up by others?

Edited by thecrashingisles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Even accepting your premise, how naive do you have to be to think that British people are incapable of making up pointless rules, or that Britain is big enough not to have to bother with the pointless rules made up by others?

I completely accept every country can and does do that. On balance, it just feels logical that we will have fewer being out of the EU rather than in.

That fecking cookie acceptance pop up for example, covering over half of the screen sometimes, causing a button or key press on every single c**ting website. I'd have voted out just to get rid of that p**sing thing even if everything else stayed the same. 😠

Edited by Huggy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

Except it is compulsion, not choice.

Wrong, unless you're against the entire concept of law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Even accepting your premise, how naive do you have to be to think that British people are incapable of making up pointless rules, or that Britain is big enough not to have to bother with the pointless rules made up by others?

That's arguing that anything short of one extreme of perfection is equal, from a shade off it right up to the opposite extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.