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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.


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Just now, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Yes you're right.

Well that, coupled with economic insanity is why they will lose. There is not enough public appetite to redo the whole process and vote again. People are sick of it and want resolution.

Only a 2nd referendum will be acceptable to those who want to remain in the EU.

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I do.   https://twitter.com/housepricemania

1409 pages....you guys should have your own forum !!!

Oh OK. Shame that really, but hey it looks like @IMHAL helped us both out. Nice repost though, thanks ! Any thoughts ?  

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23 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Labour governments always end up with the country in a financial mess.

That's the problem with them. I'm not terribly bothered about economic concerns but Labour tend to go too far off the rails even for me. Certainly I'll raise my eyebrows at anyone who said they voted Remain for economic reasons who votes for Labour. Of course I'll accept there could be non-economic reasons for doing so, although it'll be a bit ironic if they suddenly matter after all for people who previously gave the impression that nothing else does.

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2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Not true

"By several measures–public sector debt, public sector borrowing, macro-economic stability, and the value of wages and salaries–successive Tory governments have not only failed to perform better than their Labour counterparts, they have often performed worse. The simple reason is that they disinvest in the real economy in favour of financial markets and give proportional tax breaks to the richest. Yet, despite the facts, Labour’s critics continue to peddle the line that economic Conservatism is the only viable option. Check the facts before swallowing the dogma. "

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/business-economics/economics/debunking-the-myth-that-tories-are-better-than-labour-with-the-economy/19/11/

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/11/13/the-tories-have-borrowed-67-5-of-uk-national-debt-since-1946/

Verdict. If we knew that the financial crisis was about to happen then one could argue that Labour would have delayed some of the pre-crisis spending to help in buffering the impact of the recession. But this is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight. So on this basis, it is unfair to say that Labour “overspent”.

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-did-labour-overspend-and-leave-a-deficit-that-was-out-of-control-41118

Look behind the curtain.

Tories pretty much have to fix the mess Labour put the country in. It's happened twice in succession. Then people forget about the mess and get bored with the ongoing Tory austerity and vote them out, only for Labour to get in again and create another mess.

See Callaghan, Thatcher, Brown and Cameron.

Probably the only good thing about Corybn is he will shorten the cycle from 2-3 terms to 1.

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4 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Yes you're right.

Well that, coupled with economic insanity is why they will lose. There is not enough public appetite to redo the whole process and vote again. People are sick of it and want resolution.

People who want to leave are. The portion who want to remain at any cost still have that appetite.

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2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 

Arguably the only significant forward planning done by the Government are the periodic Strategic Defence Reviews.

After all the claims the NATO brought peace and security to Europe, here goes Trump  -apparently - shutting down NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/senate-committee-passes-bipartisan-bill-stop-trump-withdrawing-nato

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1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

That was before TM pulled us out of Euratom.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nuclear-research-after-brexit

I've been a fan of fusion for 40 years. However, a ex-fusion engineer admitted to himself that the energy costs of building a and running a fusion reactor probably exceeds its lifetime energy production. The concept is a non-starter, ITER at least. Lasers maybe the better route.

We already have the Solar System's biggest fusion reactor and can harvest and transmit the power world wide for far less money than fusion will cost.

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14 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

After all the claims the NATO brought peace and security to Europe, here goes Trump  -apparently - shutting down NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/senate-committee-passes-bipartisan-bill-stop-trump-withdrawing-nato

Well NATO costs us 46 billion a year, which is over five times that of the EU. So we must leave it. Don't want any foreigners involved in our defence. We're British don't you know. Another empire will be along in a minute.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-12-03/what-is-nato-how-much-does-it-cost-and-what-do-leaders-think-of-it/

The WTO is barely functioning and Trump will probably finish it off.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/11/uk-post-brexit-trade-at-risk-as-wto-top-court-shuts-down

We just need to be a rich man's Disneyland after Brexit. Get your Mickey Mouse uniform ready and don't forget to practice your cap-doffing to perfection.

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Science mega projects seem to be running in a pretty awful way at the moment.

You can take a look at JWST and SLS, as well as ITER.

I'm a bigger fan of smaller projects with disruptive technology.

Tech at the moment is moving so fast, huge multi decade projects like ITER are just too inflexible to take advantage of new developments and design methods.

For the UK, I think we are better investing in tech like MAST and other specialised areas. We have a huge job to do in remote handling and decon, and we're developing many skills in those areas.

Fusion projects I like tend to be the smaller disruptive ones like those proposed by MAST and Tokamak Energy. From outside the UK, the W7-X is a magnetic design masterpiece. Sooner or later one of the more disruptive technologies is probably going to make the 50 year old conventional tokamak design (ITER) redundant.

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2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

But it was called EUratom so we had to leave.

It is the will of the people.

There was a lot of advice prior to the referendum that Euratom was a completely separate treaty which preceded the EU.  Leaving the EU should not mean we have to leave Euratom as well.

However there were arguments on the other side, such as the Euratom treaty got adopted as one of the "Treaties of the EU". 

I think they decided it was simpler just to say we're leaving, rather than having endless legal wrangling over it.  But there are arguments we shouldn't have to leave Euratom.  It was signed "In Perpetuity" with no get-out clause.

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3 minutes ago, kzb said:

There was a lot of advice prior to the referendum that Euratom was a completely separate treaty which preceded the EU.  Leaving the EU should not mean we have to leave Euratom as well.

However there were arguments on the other side, such as the Euratom treaty got adopted as one of the "Treaties of the EU". 

I think they decided it was simpler just to say we're leaving, rather than having endless legal wrangling over it.  But there are arguments we shouldn't have to leave Euratom.  It was signed "In Perpetuity" with no get-out clause.

Yes it was completely separate, but it had EU in the title and leaving was part of May's mad attempt to get the Tory Eurosceptics behind her deal.

A more intelligent PM with even a would have known this was never going to happen and not even raised the subject as there no obvious benefit and a lot of unnecessary hassle involved in leaving. 

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57 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said:

Science mega projects seem to be running in a pretty awful way at the moment.

You can take a look at JWST and SLS, as well as ITER.

I'm a bigger fan of smaller projects with disruptive technology.

Tech at the moment is moving so fast, huge multi decade projects like ITER are just too inflexible to take advantage of new developments and design methods.

For the UK, I think we are better investing in tech like MAST and other specialised areas. We have a huge job to do in remote handling and decon, and we're developing many skills in those areas.

Fusion projects I like tend to be the smaller disruptive ones like those proposed by MAST and Tokamak Energy. From outside the UK, the W7-X is a magnetic design masterpiece. Sooner or later one of the more disruptive technologies is probably going to make the 50 year old conventional tokamak design (ITER) redundant.

Yes that makes a lot of sense.

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53 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Well NATO costs us 46 billion a year, which is over five times that of the EU. So we must leave it

No, we spend £46 billion on defence, some of which we would spend anyway.

54 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

So we must leave it. Don't want any foreigners involved in our defence. We're British don't you know. Another empire will be along in a minute.

NATO is going through some difficulties at the moment and there is no guarantee of its continued existence. However, what is continuous is the issue of collective security in Europe. In some ways it might be to our advantage if NATO did fade out and Europe would have to arrange its own security. This would put the UK in a pivotal position which could be used to extract more from the EU as part of trade offs.

This is not fantasy; we already co-operate with the French in particular in military matters and Macron does not appear to be averse to taking this co-operation further.

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

We just need to be a rich man's Disneyland after Brexit. Get your Mickey Mouse uniform ready and don't forget to practice your cap-doffing to perfection.

The meds need readjusting.

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