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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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5 minutes ago, smash said:

Well, I guess that the post brexit UK will have more favourable terms relative to other non EU countries. The point I was making is that the arrangements favour a Lithuanian here in the UK, that persons rights in the UK over a UK citizen's rights Europe wide.

The way BJ and his cronies are carrying on I wouldn't bet on that.

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35 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

The way BJ and his cronies are carrying on I wouldn't bet on that.

I take your point Bruce but I was just talking about driving, most EU countries are relaxed about taking a UK registered vehicle/licensing there. Apart from the principal gateway country.

Edited by smash

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2 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I can dismiss all of that on the basis that for most people it was not a significant consideration, and they don't give a hoot about it except for FOM. Which takes us back to our options for controlling the level of immigration we had at out disposal, but chose not to implement. Faux stuff and faux rational, a manufactured argument for an desired outcome at best...aimed at the gullible who can't or don't want see the overall picture and cost to them.

Arrogant? No. Leave has become a cult. We won and you lost. That is all that matters.There is no rational other than we want our result...regardless of price....that is not an intelligent position to take.

Remain has also become a cult only the ‘intelligent ‘ voted Remain be good children and trust Mother she knows best. And you appear to be part of it with your last line 

There are plenty of rational intelligent people who voted leave and plenty of dumb ignorant people who voted remain 

The continued generalisations, binary position taking and insults from both sides are not going to move us forward 

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2 hours ago, Arpeggio said:

Is that the same for all countries that are not inside the EU? If so then that seems reasonable.

Why? The UK driving test is pretty good. I don’t need an IDP in the US - is it because they are the most powerful country in the world and have a healthy dislike for pointless bureaucracy?

Edited by Greg Bowman

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2 hours ago, IMHAL said:

If by stupid you mean then know not what they do. Then I guess I am. Until 'they have lived the consequenses of there decision then we will never know. My view is that they will regret it. Why? Because the decision is not logical..even if it was based on a principle.....as one wise man said to me...you have to be able to afford principles....most can't!

But millions can’t afford to live like they are now emotionally, physically or financially

Your position appears to be they are not as intelligent as remainers, by the same token many vocal remainers especially the Islington and West London mob seem to have the lowest EQ I have seen in a lifetime - Their inability to understand what drove millions to vote leave is quite breath taking considering they would label themselves as well read and intelligent 

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4 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

But millions can’t afford to live like they are now emotionally, physically or financially

Your position appears to be they are not as intelligent as remainers, by the same token many vocal remainers especially the Islington and West London mob seem to have the lowest EQ I have seen in a lifetime - Their inability to understand what drove millions to vote leave is quite breath taking considering they would label themselves as well read and intelligent 

What makes you think remainers don't understand why people voted leave? "We want to take back control of our money, our laws and our borders." It's a pretty clear concept, a simple statement of nationalism really.

Holding a different opinion about how things should be is different to not understanding the other person's opinion.

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5 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

But millions can’t afford to live like they are now emotionally, physically or financially

Your position appears to be they are not as intelligent as remainers, by the same token many vocal remainers especially the Islington and West London mob seem to have the lowest EQ I have seen in a lifetime - Their inability to understand what drove millions to vote leave is quite breath taking considering they would label themselves as well read and intelligent 

People voted how they did for various reasons. I voted leave for one reason only, to get rid of the duplicitous David Cameron and his house price ramping regime. We were then treated to the ultra authoritarian Theresa May who was arguably just as bad. We now have the duplicitous and divisive BJ and his band of nationalistic and confrontational hard right cronies. 

So will it work out in the end? With a bit of luck , yes. Three successive Tory governments, each arguably worse than the last, will hopefully herald much needed change to our political system, not least being the permanent demise of the Tory party, a party that I had supported for my whole adult life, but no more.

Will we leave the EU? Hopefully not.

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10 hours ago, slawek said:

This makes sense only if the EU benefits are less than the costs. The benefits are around 50-100bln a year just in increased GDP, not counting other no directly financial benefits. What are the costs of the policies you mentioned? 

I was replying to a question concerning which laws we would not have accepted had we not been members of the EU. The question was posed in the context of sovereignty. I answered the question.

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5 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

But millions can’t afford to live like they are now emotionally, physically or financially

Your position appears to be they are not as intelligent as remainers, by the same token many vocal remainers especially the Islington and West London mob seem to have the lowest EQ I have seen in a lifetime - Their inability to understand what drove millions to vote leave is quite breath taking considering they would label themselves as well read and intelligent 

You are putting words in my mouth. I qualified what I meant and that is most people have not thought through the consequences. My belief is that people will be worse off, they can ill afford that if as you say they are already badly off. As for us and them....it exists....there is no way to rid us of it at this level ...only those at the top can propose a sensible solution to bridge the divide....if one exists. 

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8 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I can dismiss all of that on the basis that for most people it was not a significant consideration, and they don't give a hoot about it except for FOM.

You see you ask a question not expecting to get an answer. You get an answer concerning two hugely, and I mean hugely, important EU policies which we would never have enacted had we not been required to. You also get an answer referring to other laws which have had considerable but lower level malign consequences on individuals and businesses.

Your reaction? " I can dismiss all of that on the basis that for most people it was not a significant consideration, and they don't give a hoot about it"!

The cost of food can be dismissed - seriously - dismissed - really? Are you trolling here because it looks like it? You ask a question because you don't think you'll get an answer; you get an answer, and your reaction - dismissal!

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6 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

Remain has also become a cult only the ‘intelligent ‘ voted Remain be good children and trust Mother she knows best. And you appear to be part of it with your last line 

There are plenty of rational intelligent people who voted leave and plenty of dumb ignorant people who voted remain 

The continued generalisations, binary position taking and insults from both sides are not going to move us forward 

It’sa fact that the people I know who voted leave have achieved a lower level of education that the remain ones. 

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34 minutes ago, crouch said:

You see you ask a question not expecting to get an answer. You get an answer concerning two hugely, and I mean hugely, important EU policies which we would never have enacted had we not been required to. You also get an answer referring to other laws which have had considerable but lower level malign consequences on individuals and businesses.

Your reaction? " I can dismiss all of that on the basis that for most people it was not a significant consideration, and they don't give a hoot about it"!

The cost of food can be dismissed - seriously - dismissed - really? Are you trolling here because it looks like it? You ask a question because you don't think you'll get an answer; you get an answer, and your reaction - dismissal!

What about the cost of food? As I understand it the cost is likely to go up due to Sterling depreciation, increased red tape, transport costs etc.  Apart from the fact that these two policies did not register as significant on most people minds, hence why I dismissed it... not trolling thank you very much... just saying it as it is.

But thanks for bringing those up... you prove my point that there is not much that people would have had an issue with(except for FoM) had those policies not been highlighted and weaponised to achieve the end result they wanted. By that, I do not claim that they are good policies, simply they were not a significant issue for the vast majority.

And while we are onto costs...now you think it cannot be dissmissed. Let's keep an  eye on the cost of fuel post Brexit, the cost of cars post Brexit, the national debt post Brexit, what the pound in your pocket will buy you post Brexit..... me thinks it is you who is trolling.

Edited by IMHAL

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6 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

Why? The UK driving test is pretty good. I don’t need an IDP in the US - is it because they are the most powerful country in the world and have a healthy dislike for pointless bureaucracy?

You can’t have ever lived in the US if you think they have a dislike of pointless bureaucracy.  

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48 minutes ago, crouch said:

You see you ask a question not expecting to get an answer. You get an answer concerning two hugely, and I mean hugely, important EU policies which we would never have enacted had we not been required to.

Quite a stupid comment given that we voluntarily joined both by joining in the first place.

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1 hour ago, crouch said:

I was replying to a question concerning which laws we would not have accepted had we not been members of the EU. The question was posed in the context of sovereignty. I answered the question.

You used an argument that many billions were lost due to CAF and CAP. Can you quantify this?

As you know nobody and no state is really 100% sovereign. We as an individuals live in a society and need to follow its rules even if not all of them benefit us. An alternative of living in a wild is much worse. The same with states, they are bound by pacts and agreements like WTO, UN and many more. An alternative is being a rogue state like North Korea.

The rules of the EU are meant to benefit all members, so they are not always optimal for us. They are a result of bargaining between members states. We have a prominent position in those negotiations so in most cases we got what we want.  

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6 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

But millions can’t afford to live like they are now emotionally, physically or financially

Your position appears to be they are not as intelligent as remainers, by the same token many vocal remainers especially the Islington and West London mob seem to have the lowest EQ I have seen in a lifetime - Their inability to understand what drove millions to vote leave is quite breath taking considering they would label themselves as well read and intelligent 

It's quite clear that the UK economy isn't delivering an improved standard of living for many people.  I have no doubt that understandable frustration with this played a significant part in the thinking of a significant number of Brexit voters.

I don't however believe that EU membership is the underlying cause of this failure to deliver a decent standard of living for many people, and think it is highly likely that leaving the EU will in fact make the situation worse, particularly given the tack taken by BJ in his latest attempt to negotiate a WA which indicates that the UK seeks to "undercut" the EU in areas such as workers rights.

The real failure was that the Remain Campaign was very poor - Project Fear seemed like bullying whereas a calm and collected description of the benefits of EU membership for trade and economic development would have been more effective.  No one is claiming that the EU is perfect - just that being in is better for the UK than being out.

The fact is that many communities in the UK have been effectively ignored by government in the UK for many years.  This was not the fault of the EU but I understand the impulse of these people to make themselves heard when they had the chance.

 

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6 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

Remain has also become a cult only the ‘intelligent ‘ voted Remain be good children and trust Mother she knows best. And you appear to be part of it with your last line 

There are plenty of rational intelligent people who voted leave and plenty of dumb ignorant people who voted remain 

The continued generalisations, binary position taking and insults from both sides are not going to move us forward 

That is true but based on the study below it is also true that on average Remainers have better numerical, cognitive reflection and reasoning skills. In same cases this difference can be barely noticeable as it is hidden by a natural variation of a skill in the population e.g. reasoning. But some times the difference is so prominent that you can infer with a high confidence if someone is a Remainer or Levear by testing the skill e.g. cognitive reasoning among men.   

image.png.605d67193b4ff1ec1d84bfefe63a5de5.png

image.png.e8007be659b834b8944c6bfcd003197d.png

image.png.9b7fd5accb63da06de1cf19c61748ac5.png

https://www .onlineprivacyfoundation.org/opf-research/psychological-biases/personality-authoritarianism-and-cognition-in-brexit/

image.png

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32 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

What about the cost of food? As I understand it the cost is likely to go up due to Sterling depreciation, increased red tape, transport costs etc.  Apart from the fact that these two policies did not register as significant on most people minds, hence why I dismissed it... not trolling thank you very much... just saying it as it is.

You asked a question as to which policies we would not have accepted if we were not members of the EU in the context of sovereignty. I answered the question which had nothing to do with cost.

 

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15 minutes ago, slawek said:

You used an argument that many billions were lost due to CAF and CAP. Can you quantify this?

No, and as the main argument was about sovereignty not cost it isn't necessary.

 

17 minutes ago, slawek said:

As you know nobody and no state is really 100% sovereign. We as an individuals live in a society and need to follow its rules even if not all of them benefit us. An alternative of living in a wild is much worse. The same with states, they are bound by pacts and agreements like WTO, UN and many more. An alternative is being a rogue state like North Korea.

The argument was about which laws we would not have enacted if we were not members of the EU. 

20 minutes ago, slawek said:

The rules of the EU are meant to benefit all members, so they are not always optimal for us. They are a result of bargaining between members states. We have a prominent position in those negotiations so in most cases we got what we want.

Irrelevant to the argument and assertion without evidence.

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31 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Quite a stupid comment given that we voluntarily joined both by joining in the first place.

Irrelevant. The post was about which laws we would not have enacted had we not been members of the EU, not about the trade offs we made by accepting those laws.

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1 minute ago, crouch said:

You asked a question as to which policies we would not have accepted if we were not members of the EU in the context of sovereignty. I answered the question which had nothing to do with cost.

 

Crouchy said ->

"The cost of food can be dismissed - seriously - dismissed - really? Are you trolling here because it looks like it? You ask a question because you don't think you'll get an answer; you get an answer, and your reaction - dismissal!"

Also, for the record I said "I can dismiss all of that [the policies] on the basis that for most people it was not a significant consideration". They were not in anyway the dominant factors before the referndum, even after they where weaponised in the referendum they still where not dominant factors. 

As for costs: You said: "The Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy have cost many billions in the last 46 years."  So....... something to do with costs then.  

 

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Just now, Social Justice League said:

We won't be leaving the EU on 31st October so the general election is now the focus imo.

Cummings is already saying that the Tories are the party of "No Deal".

Nigel is jealous.  :)

This was always his plan, as called out by a few on twitter back in July

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  • 284 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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