Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, Arpeggio said: Democracy is more important than your views, even if Brexiters are thick. Democracy did not end in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, thehowler said: He is there to give Parliament a voice. Not to engage in discussions with foreign trading partners. He is not there to take sides. Whether it is with a majority of MPs, or a minority. His impartiality is the essence of his role. The European Parliament isn't a "foreign trading partner". It's a democratic body which includes the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, thehowler said: The only way I can see you getting a ref is if Labour win a GE. And even then I can't see how they'd arrange it; MPs will never approve a WTO or equivalent leave offer on the ballot and that will leave a large group of voters isolated. But it's a waste of time engaging with any pro-2nd reffers because they will never acknowledge the considerable obstacles in the way to a 2nd ref - it's their last hope and they will never give it up. They are fanatical. Or a GE results in a hung parliament, or there is a vote of no confidence followed by an interim government appointed by The Queen, or Parliament pass legislation to force the government to hold a 2nd ref. A 2nd ref is not the last hope of remaining in the EU, revocation of A50 would do the job just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Arpeggio said: Not on the link you gave. Are you referring to something else? I saw it live on Sky news, no link available but that is what he said. The link I posted was the closest I could find that was indicative of his current thinking. Edited October 9, 2019 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Or a GE results in a hung parliament, or there is a vote of no confidence followed by an interim government appointed by The Queen, or Parliament pass legislation to force the government to hold a 2nd ref. A 2nd ref is not the last hope of remaining in the EU, revocation of A50 would do the job just fine. MPs have already vote three times (or is it four?) against holding anther ref. Most of them voted to trigger Art 50, so I think it's unlikely they'd reverse it as it would raise issues of basic competence. But as I said I don't think there's any chance that anything I say will change your mind on a 2nd ref, so I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, thehowler said: MPs have already vote three times (or is it four?) against holding anther ref. Most of them voted to trigger Art 50, so I think it's unlikely they'd reverse it as it would raise issues of basic competence. But as I said I don't think there's any chance that anything I say will change your mind on a 2nd ref, so I'll leave it at that. About as much chance as I have of changing your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 31 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The European Parliament isn't a "foreign trading partner". It's a democratic body which includes the UK. Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take it that you agree with the substance of my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: About as much chance as I have of changing your mind. Safe to say neither of us know how it will turn out. So touché. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Democracy did not end in 2016. If you are not suggesting a referendum every 5 or so years then your argument is disingenuous. Surely you must understand why? Put it this way. If remain won a second referendum and that was the end of it, then by your very own argument democracy has ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 What a lovely manor. I wonder who it belongs to. https://chillingham-castle.com/the-family/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, thehowler said: No, war has nothing to do with it. I just think the speaker is no longer impartial. Fanatics support him. Non-fanatics question his impartiality. The Speaker has always made it clear that he is sees the role of Speaker as being a champion of Parliament not the Executive. So in a situation where the Executive is trying to thwart the clearly expressed will of Parliament you should expect him to side with Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, thehowler said: No, war has nothing to do with it. I just think the speaker is no longer impartial. Fanatics support him. Non-fanatics question his impartiality. Each passing day slowly your true colours begin to reveal themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Arpeggio said: If you are not suggesting a referendum every 5 or so years then your argument is disingenuous. Surely you must understand why? Put it this way. If remain won a second referendum and that was the end of it, then by your very own argument democracy has ended. Why not, an advisory referendum every 5 or so years might be useful to gauge the mood of the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Arpeggio said: If you are not suggesting a referendum every 5 or so years then your argument is disingenuous. Surely you must understand why? Put it this way. If remain won a second referendum and that was the end of it, then by your very own argument democracy has ended. Personally I’d be happy to have a referendum every year till kingdom come or until everybody grows up. My friends dad made him smoke cigarettes till he puked. Technically child abuse but the country would be thankful in the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Why not, an advisory referendum every 5 or so years might be useful to gauge the mood of the people. Glad you see my point at least. If Leave won 3 times in a row, what would you want to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, pig said: Personally I’d be happy to have a referendum every year till kingdom come or until everybody grows up. Your words "until everybody grows up." suggests that there is a certain end point in your mind. What would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Arpeggio said: Glad you see my point at least. If Leave won 3 times in a row, what would you want to happen? I have never disagreed with that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Arpeggio said: Your words "until everybody grows up." suggests that there is a certain end point in your mind. What would that be? You edited out the bit where everybody starts puking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, pig said: You edited out the bit where everybody starts puking O.K. as you wish.... 7 minutes ago, pig said: Personally I’d be happy to have a referendum every year till kingdom come or until everybody grows up. My friends dad made him smoke cigarettes till he puked. Technically child abuse but the country would be thankful in the end Your words "until everybody grows up." suggests that there is a certain end point in your mind. What would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I have never disagreed with that point. Great, so, if Leave won 2 times in a row, what would you want to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, thehowler said: Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take it that you agree with the substance of my point. Of course not. Why should the Speaker of the UK parliament not speak with the Speaker of the EU parliament? Do you think Nancy Pelosi shouldn't have met Johnson or Corbyn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, thehowler said: The only way I can see you getting a ref is if Labour win a GE. And even then I can't see how they'd arrange it; MPs will never approve a WTO or equivalent leave offer on the ballot and that will leave a large group of voters isolated. But it's a waste of time engaging with any pro-2nd reffers because they will never acknowledge the considerable obstacles in the way to a 2nd ref - it's their last hope and they will never give it up. They are fanatical. I would let the leave campaign decide what form of Brexit should go on the ballot, with the proviso that it must be a deliverable option no unicorns. So back to Barnier's chart decide on their red lines and pick one of the available options. WTO would be fine, if that's what they wanted to campaign on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Arpeggio said: Great, so, if Leave won 2 times in a row, what would you want to happen? It was 3 times last time you asked, but no matter, the answer is the same. Consider holding a properly thought out binding referendum with well defined and achievable options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: The DUP should be terrified of no deal, if it happens because they blocked a deal they will be held to account for whatever economic calamity follows. It will have zero political effect on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Arpeggio said: Great, so, if Leave won 2 times in a row, what would you want to happen? Leave - How many time’s do you guys have to be told ? Oh wait a minute, I get it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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