Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[pig]

10 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I’m bored of this.

You know my views. I’m not going to change yours and you won’t change mine.

I know your arguments.

On an internet forum they are like a cloth thrown over the invisible man, you can't really be sure what he looks like.

In your case atm I'm puzzled by the anti-democratic shape you're making.

[GrizzlyDave]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Hook, line and sinker.

The number is irrelevant to me. It could be 99%. For me it is all about respecting the once in a generation democratic process.

[OnionTerror]

29 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I’m bored of this.

You know my views. I’m not going to change yours and you won’t change mine.

Yup, its precisely why I've pretty much withdrawn from this thread.  Going round and round in circles achieves no purpose, and we are now mere passengers. Moreover, the personal attacks are getting ever tiresome; constantly playing the man and not the ball.

For me, democracy overrides any economic issue.  Economies can be rebuild, but trust in the democratic process cannot.  It looks as if we are going to learn the hard way, but parliament cannot function in the same way ever again as we have seen through the looking glass.  My middle way that I have long argued for has failed miserably, and now its a virtual fight to the death between revoke and no deal.  Neither option is sustainable, but there you are. 

See you on the other side.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Dave Beans

[GrizzlyDave]

9 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

Yup, its precisely why I've pretty much withdrawn from this thread.  Going round and round in circles achieves no purpose, and we are now mere passengers. Moreover, the personal attacks are getting ever tiresome; constantly playing the man and not the ball.

For me, democracy overrides any economic issue.  Economies can be rebuild, but trust in the democratic process cannot.  It looks as if we are going to learn the hard way, but parliament cannot function in the same way ever again as we have seen through the looking glass.  My middle way that I have long argued for has failed miserably, and now its a virtual fight to the death between revoke and no deal.  Neither option is sustainable, but there you are. 

See you on the other side.

I’d be happy with you middle way.

You deserve credit for championing it for so long.

[OnionTerror]

20 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I’d be happy with you middle way.

You deserve credit for championing it for so long.

The hardcore on both sides have basically morphed into the same entity.  On one hand, is that a middle way is not Brexit and on the other, is that we would still "take on all the rules", so we might as well stay in (the terms are interchangeable for each side; amongst other arguments made).  Thus they twist facts, and they rubbish any viable middle path in order to try and get their way.  It's a culture war.  I'm tired and bored of having to defend my corner in each and every turn.

I've tried my best, but of course it changes nowt.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Dave Beans

[zugzwang]

14 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

  My middle way that I have long argued for has failed miserably, and now its a virtual fight to the death between revoke and no deal.  Neither option is sustainable, but there you are. 

Revoke would mean the end of the Conservative Party, that's all. No great loss. The nature of our trading relationship with the EU would continue much as before. Continuing to live beyond our means is what's truly unsustainable. Unless we address that issue then the prospect of national bankruptcy beckons.

[jonb2]

2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

They voted to leave the EU. Plans are irrelevant.

Ah, I see whey Brexit is such a shitstorm now. Don't you think just a teeny weeny little plan might have been a good idea? The whole thing is like walking in front of a speeding car hoping the driver will stop.

 

[jonb2]

3 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Yes. I believe strongly in the principal that it was a once in a generation decision.

People’s change of view - to me - is irrelevant. They are welcome to change their view; but that doesn’t entitle them to another vote.

You can have one in 2023, using the frequency principles set out in the GFA.

Let's just ban elections too.

[OnionTerror]

13 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Revoke would mean the end of the Conservative Party, that's all. No great loss. The nature of our trading relationship with the EU would continue much as before. Continuing to live beyond our means is what's truly unsustainable. Unless we address that issue then the prospect of national bankruptcy beckons.

Within the EU, it would be STFU.  What are going to do?  Leave?  No deal or revoke are unsustainable.  One vote was made, it must be honoured.

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That worked well.

I hear what you say. From a moral and ethical perspective - it was once in a generation.

There were no morals or ethics. But there were falsehoods and fantasies. And the current state of play involving our politicians with their stupidity, division, self-interest and destruction is what you get when you try to push through an invalid referendum.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies

We are only not having another referendum because they are all either completely deluded or completely gutless - probably both.

Simples.

[GrizzlyDave]

7 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Ah, I see whey Brexit is such a shitstorm now. Don't you think just a teeny weeny little plan might have been a good idea? The whole thing is like walking in front of a speeding car hoping the driver will stop.

 

Of course a plan would be useful. That’s a failure of David Cameron’s leadership that no brexit planning was done in government before the vote. But I also believe in setting a vision.

But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold.

[Bruce Banner]

4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

Within the EU, it would be STFU.  What are going to do?  Leave?  No deal or revoke are unsustainable.  One vote was made, it must be honoured.

Unless the people who made that vote have changed their minds and no longer want it honoured.

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, Dave Beans said:

Yup, its precisely why I've pretty much withdrawn from this thread.  Going round and round in circles achieves no purpose, and we are now mere passengers. Moreover, the personal attacks are getting ever tiresome; constantly playing the man and not the ball.

For me, democracy overrides any economic issue.  Economies can be rebuild, but trust in the democratic process cannot.  It looks as if we are going to learn the hard way, but parliament cannot function in the same way ever again as we have seen through the looking glass.  My middle way that I have long argued for has failed miserably, and now its a virtual fight to the death between revoke and no deal.  Neither option is sustainable, but there you are. 

See you on the other side.

Fairness is the central tenet of democracy. It's the big daddy of why democracy exists at all

The referendum was unfair as the promises made were false. Ergo, the referendum was not democratic.

And herein lies the problem. It's not about seeking a compromise. It's all about winning. If we leave - 50% of the country will believe in democracy, 50% will give up on it and vice-versa.

It's a problem with no easy solution - those that claim there is are the worst of them and speak with forked tongue.

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by jonb2

[jonb2]

19 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Of course a plan would be useful. That’s a failure of David Cameron’s leadership that no brexit planning was done in government before the vote. But I also believe in setting a vision.

But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold.

If there was one example of what Brexit signifies, it's the stark difference between a well-led country and one that is far from it.

Brexit would not have happened if the bankers had got their just deserts and the Tories had not decided to double-down of the punishment with austerity.

Brexit will likely usher in a more right-wing government intent on moving us from our current cells to solitary confinement. So TPTB win again.

Kennedy, like Roosevelt, were great leaders. They had vision, they were in touch with their peoples. They had a conscience. They were intelligent and capable men.

Now, tell me - who in the current Brexit camp can step up to being even an ant compared to them?

Edited July 13, 2019 by jonb2

[dugsbody]

2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

If you destroy the principles on which democracy operates, you destroy democracy itself.

A once in a generation vote.

Cold dead hands.

You're a walking advert for the idiocy of the hardcore no-deal brexiters.

[dugsbody]

19 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Fairness is the central tenet of democracy. It's the big daddy of why democracy exists at all

The referendum was unfair as the promises made were false. Ergo, the referendum was not democratic.

GD does not believe that. For him, the end justifies the means, so anything goes, whatever lies you need to tell, to win. 

[crouch]

32 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Of course a plan would be useful

How is a "plan" compatible with a free enterprise economy? Surely the essence of free enterprise is that economic actors should be free to respond to changes in circumstances in the way they consider appropriate rather than be subject to a "plan" handed down from on high? Or do I have that wrong?

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, Dave Beans said:

Yup, its precisely why I've pretty much withdrawn from this thread.  Going round and round in circles achieves no purpose, and we are now mere passengers. Moreover, the personal attacks are getting ever tiresome; constantly playing the man and not the ball.

For me, democracy overrides any economic issue.  Economies can be rebuild, but trust in the democratic process cannot.  It looks as if we are going to learn the hard way, but parliament cannot function in the same way ever again as we have seen through the looking glass.  My middle way that I have long argued for has failed miserably, and now its a virtual fight to the death between revoke and no deal.  Neither option is sustainable, but there you are. 

See you on the other side.

So even you, in the end became a hard brexiter. Would you have voted for no deal brexit at the start? Yet now that a mistake has been made (in allowing a vote on a range of intangible options that necessarily needs to become tangible), you think it would destroy democracy to rectify it? What about the 48% of people who are outraged that the shysters won? What about the fact that only a minority support the "no deal" brexit? Do we al just have to lump it because our views on what is fair and what is democratic don't count?

Sorry Dave, you're very reasonably but I believe even you have a blind spot on this.

 

[pig]

40 minutes ago, crouch said:

How is a "plan" compatible with a free enterprise economy? Surely the essence of free enterprise is that economic actors should be free to respond to changes in circumstances in the way they consider appropriate rather than be subject to a "plan" handed down from on high? Or do I have that wrong?

That might depend on whether you think businesses should choose their EU employees or the government should.

[crouch]

1 minute ago, pig said:

That might depend on whether you think businesses should choose their EU employees or the government should.

I'm just intrigued as to what is meant by "plan".

[pig]

1 minute ago, crouch said:

I'm just intrigued as to what is meant by "plan".

Well, for example the plan might be for a bit of american economic liberalism together with social illiberalism to keep the masses in check.

Ideally in circumstances where we're told despite being a democracy we have no choice .

 

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, crouch said:

How is a "plan" compatible with a free enterprise economy? Surely the essence of free enterprise is that economic actors should be free to respond to changes in circumstances in the way they consider appropriate rather than be subject to a "plan" handed down from on high? Or do I have that wrong?

Um, not quite - but I can see where you get your assumptions from.

On the one hand, and taken to its ultimate goal - you have libertarianism - which is what I think your are assuming in your question. Desiring the smallest possible governance (aka interference) from the state - if any at all. Anarcho capitalism comes under this umbrella too. I think we'd both agree these are daft ideas, worse they are dangerously selfish. There always was a need for the invisible hand - government IOW.

On the other extreme you have state capitalism. Like that in China.

For us, a plan would be keeping trade options open. Not so far buddy. This depends on government whichever way you want to play it. Trade is enabled at nation state level and for good reasons. The law has to step in. The use of a country's infrastructure must bend to the exporter and importer. Trade deals are incredibly complex. Sailing down the old man Mississippi for the first time with your beaver skins just don't cut it any more.

Another part would be internal plans to give a direction to well-being and good jobs Technology, educational, green etc. Just looked out the window - nope, no plans out there. So how is this going to change after Brexit?

There was a plan for the NHS I think - perhaps it was 2016 - post Brexit maybe? Can't remember. Anyway, it was obviously when I was on drugs as there is no sign of it now.

Perhaps it would be good to know who our new best friends are going to be after Wrecksit. But it seems with the latest shit with the USA and being told what to do - you just can't plan for these things.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by jonb2

[Bruce Banner]

10 minutes ago, crouch said:

I'm just intrigued as to what is meant by "plan".

The only plan that I can see is an all out attempt to deliver any kind of Brexit, be it hard or BRINO, in a futile attempt to save the Tory party, but I doubt it will work, Cameron's place in history looks assured to me.

[crouch]

7 minutes ago, pig said:

Well, for example the plan might be for a bit of american economic liberalism together with social illiberalism to keep the masses in check.

Ideally in circumstances where we're told despite being a democracy we have no choice .

 

Just how do you "plan" for this?

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said:

The only plan that I can see is an all out attempt to deliver any kind of Brexit, be it hard or BRINO, in a futile attempt to save the Tory party, but I doubt it will work, Cameron's place in history looks assured to me.

This is indeed the plan. It's been the plan from the beginning. The only one. Party before country - same old stale bread and circuses for the man in the street.