GrizzlyDave Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I really can't understand how you can effectively say that if the majority of the people now want to remain that you are happy to drag them screaming and kicking out of the EU. That is tyranny, not democracy! I say it comfortably and with absolute harmony. People has their chance to vote; and both sides agreed in advance it was a once in a generation decision. If you regret your vote, you should have thought about it more seriously in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: I really can't understand how you can effectively say that if the majority of the people now want to remain that you are happy to drag them screaming and kicking out of the EU. That is tyranny, not democracy! The problem with your argument is that it's not so much an argument in favour of a second referendum as an argument against referenda in general. Most of these issues are complicated and can't be answered by a simple yea or nay; you've admitted that yourself by having changed your mind. Direct democracy sounds all right but it would probably be a disaster in practice. Politics would be dominated by opinion polls and there would be an endless round of voting - we'd be in the voting booth on a weekly basis. Meanwhile chaos ensues and nothing is resolved, political tensions mount, the country is divided; the economy goes to pot... Cameron called the referendum to solve a party political problem; not to allow a decision to be made but to avoid having to make a decision. There was a much better case for calling a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty than this time. A second referendum would compound the chaos and solve nothing and direct democracy in a large, developed state is basically a rather stupid system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: I say it comfortably and with absolute harmony. People has their chance to vote; and both sides agreed in advance it was a once in a generation decision. If you regret your vote, you should have thought about it more seriously in the first place. So if 90% of leave voters have changed their minds and now want to remain, you would still drag the vast majority of the population, against their will, out of the EU? Good luck with that, fortunately for the majority you are not in charge and I'm pretty sure that parliament will not allow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, crouch said: The problem with your argument is that it's not so much an argument in favour of a second referendum as an argument against referenda in general. Most of these issues are complicated and can't be answered by a simple yea or nay; you've admitted that yourself by having changed your mind. Direct democracy sounds all right but it would probably be a disaster in practice. Politics would be dominated by opinion polls and there would be an endless round of voting - we'd be in the voting booth on a weekly basis. Meanwhile chaos ensues and nothing is resolved, political tensions mount, the country is divided; the economy goes to pot... Cameron called the referendum to solve a party political problem; not to allow a decision to be made but to avoid having to make a decision. There was a much better case for calling a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty than this time. A second referendum would compound the chaos and solve nothing and direct democracy in a large, developed state is basically a rather stupid system. Unfortunately for you, it looks like there will be a parliamentary majority for a 2nd referendum if that clown Johnson tries to push a no deal Brexit through. For obvious reasons, whatever it is, the result of the 2nd referendum should be enacted immediately. With regard to referenda, I think that with complex issues we will need to have multiple referenda to reach a democratic compromise. Edited July 12, 2019 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: For obvious reasons, whatever it is, the result of the 2nd referendum should be enacted immediately. Indeed and then we'll be in the countdown to the third referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneyfornothing Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Just now, crouch said: Indeed and then we'll be in the countdown to the third referendum. sorry .. no 3rd referendum if remain win .. thats how democracy works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, crouch said: Indeed and then we'll be in the countdown to the third referendum. I was editing my above post while you were posting. Yes, multiple referendums could be necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, PeanutButter said: Bank of England's Vlieghe: no-deal Brexit could mean near zero interest rates - business live Policymaker Gertjan Vlieghe said rates might have to be cut to virtually zero if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal Wonder what that will do to house prices? Hardly a surprise as around a year ago a BoE deputy giving evidence to the select commitee said that the response to a no deal was likely to be huge provision of liquidity, more QE and near zero interest rates for an extended period. Not exactly the conditions likely to produce a HPC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, moneyfornothing said: sorry .. no 3rd referendum if remain win .. thats how democracy works Ah yes of course - I'd forgotten that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: Ah yes of course - I'd forgotten that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: Funny that, because last week it was that interest rates would have to rise because of inflation and a reduced exchange rate. Bascially, they haven't got a clue and are just making up any old scary crap as they feel like it. Finny thing is no one actually said that, so why are you posting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 32 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: So if 90% of leave voters have changed their minds and now want to remain, you would still drag the vast majority of the population, against their will, out of the EU? Yes I would. Good luck with that, fortunately for the majority you are not in charge and I'm pretty sure that parliament will not allow it. Cold dead hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Cold dead hands. Please stop replying by doctoring quotes, it makes it difficult to debate with you. To be clear, you said "Yes I would" in reply to "So if 90% of leave voters have changed their minds and now want to remain, you would still drag the vast majority of the population, against their will, out of the EU? Come to think of it, it's not worth trying to debate with you. The only reason I don't put you on ignore is that I refuse to let your rhetoric go unchallenged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, btd1981 said: Well I for one changed my mind the day after the vote, the moment those slimy ***** back pedaled on the claims they had based their campaign upon. Almost everything that has happened since has cemented my view. The only leave voters that I know (who are still alive) have all changed their minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: The only leave voters that I know (who are still alive) have all changed their minds. ......the ones have spoken to that would admit to have changed their mind have been from leave to remain.....the rest just want it over and done with....leave or remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 minute ago, winkie said: ......the ones have spoken to that would admit to have changed their mind have been from leave to remain.....the rest just want it over and done with....leave or remain. It is those who have turned democracy into a farce. Representative democracy relies on a sizeable percentage of the population (with the attention span of a goldfish), either not caring, not understanding, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, winkie said: ......the ones have spoken to that would admit to have changed their mind have been from leave to remain.....the rest just want it over and done with....leave or remain. The problem with this is whether we leave or stay - Brexit won't be over for decades. It really is the farce that never stops giving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said: Please stop replying by doctoring quotes, it makes it difficult to debate with you. To be clear, you said "Yes I would" in reply to "So if 90% of leave voters have changed their minds and now want to remain, you would still drag the vast majority of the population, against their will, out of the EU? Come to think of it, it's not worth trying to debate with you. The only reason I don't put you on ignore is that I refuse to let your rhetoric go unchallenged. Yes I would. The vote has taken place; if you’ve changed your mind, tough titties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Yes I would. The vote has taken place; if you’ve changed your mind, tough titties. "Tough titties" you do what you're told.... or what? Cold dead hands? A government trying to force through measures that 90% of the population does not want on the premise that they wanted it three years ago is likely to get unceremoniously ejected, and rightly too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) A smoking gun that Salvini, AfD, Le Pen and other far right European parties are financed by Russia. Brexit and Trump are also a part of this global movement, likely supported by Russian money too. It is a meeting in Moscow between Italians and Russians discussing technical details of a secret deal to fund Salvini's party from proceeds of an oil trade with Russia. There are also some UK connections, they consider using a UK based bank as intermediary and paying someone £20k a month to facilitate the transaction. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/buzzfeednews/transcript-lega-russia-oil-deal-meeting Some names are omitted in this transcript as INAUDIBLE. Audio recordings are also available but only fragments. Edited July 12, 2019 by slawek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: "Tough titties" you do what you're told.... or what? Cold dead hands? A government trying to force through measures that 90% of the population does not want on the premise that they wanted it three years ago is likely to get unceremoniously ejected, and rightly too. It’s a view I hold so strongly I will only let go of it when you can prise it from my cold dead hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simvastatin Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, slawek said: A smoking gun that Salvini, AfD, Le Pen and other far right European parties are financed by Russia. Brexit and Trump are also a part of this global movement, likely supported by Russian money too. It is a meeting in Moscow between Italians and Russians discussing technical details of a secret deal to fund Salvini's party from proceeds of an oil trade with Russia. There are also some UK connections, they consider using a UK based bank as intermediary and paying someone £20k a month to facilitate the transaction. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/buzzfeednews/transcript-lega-russia-oil-deal-meeting Some names are omitted in this transcript as INAUDIBLE. Audio recordings are also available but only fragments. Why is it when the Russians destabilise countries it is wrong, the UK has been doing it for ever and still does They seem to have become better than our lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, prozac said: Why is it when the Russians destabilise countries it is wrong, the UK has been doing it for ever and still does They seem to have become better than our lot To be clear I am against it regardless who is doing this. The British Empire is a prime example of meddling in other regions of the world for their own gains. The USA, mainly through CIA, has been involved in countless such operations too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 12 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: It’s a view I hold so strongly I will only let go of it when you can prise it from my cold dead hands. There's really no answer to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: There's really no answer to that. Of course you don’t. I would expect not! We have diametrically opposed views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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