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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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2 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

It didn't pass so McVey is still in with a chance :D.

Good. Going to love watching one of them try.

Just like I want Boris to be the next PM, to watch how he tries to bumble his way out of all the undeliverable promises (ie. lies).

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3 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

You know you can repeat that paragraph till you're blue in the face, this is what brexiters will see:

I love the idea that if/when the UK is setting its own regulations for things that are currently decided at EU level, if you don't like a particular regulation you can just vote for a different candidate for MP and that will get the regulation changed. Sure it will.

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10 hours ago, crouch said:

But, contrary to what you say, he doesn't say that Brexit is stupid; he wouldn't because he's a diplomat. Complex yes; time consuming yes; difficult yes. But stupid - that's something else.

That is all very interesting, except, he quite clearly indicates that we're only brexiting because the brexit campaign refused to commit to any destination and allowed an otherwise fractured group of people to all believe their vision of brexit would be the one.

You cannot then argue that it is undemocratic to want to hold an informed decision making process, because "we already made the mistake and no take backsies".

Sure, we might be ok in the long term, but the point is we're heading to a path that the majority of the country DO NOT WANT. That is wrong.

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5 hours ago, crouch said:

No one - certainly not me - has denied the risks and difficulty of Brexit; it will be very difficult.

As to there being a Brexit that works being worse than remain is purely speculative; there is no evidence for that at all - and cannot be.

We could have had better control of immigration but not complete control and certainly not enough control.

That you have to use pejorative terms to characterise someone else's opinions means that your arguments are not strong enough to stand on their own - which is indeed the case.

You seem happy to pick snippet from Sir Ivan Rogers and totally ignore other messages. He is quite clear that brexit, whatever deal will be worse economically. You seem happy to take mainly the bits that suit you.

How do you know that we would not have enough control of (eu) immigration?  We havn't even tried to control it using the methods at our disposal. I don't recall anyone asking for complete control, it was not specifically mentioned in the referendum....you are making all this up.

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1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

You know you can repeat that paragraph till you're blue in the face, this is what brexiters will see:

 

Better to have the the leader of the European Commission and the EU Council voted for directly by the citizens of Europe don't you think? As we've just seen, our MPs have spent 3 years trying to get out the promise they made, why wouldn't these unelected officials care even less about what the politicians promised?

But wait, the "little people" of Europe may elect their own Donald Trump, and we can't be having that can we? As we all know, that will be very undemocratic - they won't know what they will be voting for.

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2 minutes ago, yodigo said:

Better to have the the leader of the European Commission and the EU Council voted for directly by the citizens of Europe don't you think? As we've just seen, our MPs have spent 3 years trying to get out the promise they made, why wouldn't these unelected officials care even less about what the politicians promised?

But wait, the "little people" of Europe may elect their own Donald Trump, and we can't be having that can we? As we all know, that will be very undemocratic - they won't know what they will be voting for.

And who will be voting for the leader of Britain? 

A bunch of rich old farts who will get a tax bung for the privilege..... 

Don't throw stones......

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1 hour ago, IMHAL said:

And who will be voting for the leader of Britain? 

A bunch of rich old farts who will get a tax bung for the privilege..... 

Don't throw stones......

Don't know where you live, but where I work all the youngsters (20ish) are buying houses - gasp even new builds, and loaded with student debt too, and have new cars - so drop your nonsense where it belongs.

Edited by yodigo

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37 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Good. Going to love watching one of them try.

Just like I want Boris to be the next PM, to watch how he tries to bumble his way out of all the undeliverable promises (ie. lies).

Bozzie will go down the same route as Trumpy. Borrow and spend hard + tax cuts for the rich. The old Laffer Curve will be trotted out as justification (below).

Conservative commentators will forget to be appalled by the fiscal profligacy.

f071a58027cbd5ce4225bf6598a8fc22.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, yodigo said:

Don't know where you live, but where I work all the youngsters (20ish) are buying houses - gasp even new builds, and loaded with student debt too, and have new cars - so drop your nonsense where it belongs.

Havn't got a clue what your point is.

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1 hour ago, IMHAL said:

Havn't got a clue what your point is.

"A bunch of rich old farts who will get a tax bung for the privilege...."

Don't have to be old to be rich.... Anyway, not sure what yours is either - except that's somehow pro-EU in a way that makes no sense.

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2 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Good. Going to love watching one of them try.

Just like I want Boris to be the next PM, to watch how he tries to bumble his way out of all the undeliverable promises (ie. lies).

I'm pro-brexit, harder and sooner the better, then I can **** off to Spain when I'm ready and not have to endure any more annoying Brits turning up  for no particular reason 🙂 

But Boris, no, no and no again. Had his chance, and ran away and allowed the May disaster.

Edited by yodigo

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4 minutes ago, yodigo said:

"A bunch of rich old farts who will get a tax bung for the privilege...."

Don't have to be old to be rich.... Anyway, not sure what yours is either - except that's somehow pro-EU in a way that makes no sense.

Our next pm will be selected by about 150k conservative people with an average age of about 60 and they will most likely benefit from the bung that BoJo is bribing them with.

Are you suggesting that it is common/the majority of our 20 years old to buy houses and new cars? If so you are not living in the uk.

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13 minutes ago, yodigo said:

I'm pro-brexit, harder and sooner the better, then I can **** off to Spain when I'm ready and not have to endure any more annoying Brits turning up  for no particular reason 🙂 

But Boris, no, no and no again. Had his chance, and ran away and allowed the May disaster.

I do like your style. It is by far the best argument I have heard so far for Brexit.... well done. :D

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7 hours ago, jonb2 said:

I think this is deeper and is a hidden policy of the Tories. Boris just let the cat out of the bag.

We have investment bankers, hedge funds, private equity companies, tax avoiders, oligarchs  and arms sales. Enough money floating about for the Tories to enrich themselves by associating with enabling the deals. Who cares about normal business - when there is no money in it for the Tory talking heads and their mates. Parallel universes - them and us.

All other things are merely just empty words and pointless actions to keep the populace at rest. Nicely wrapped food parcels with no calories.

And so it goes on.

Can they still enable when JC is in Power or Is he just another enabler? If they want to still have their faces in the trough they need to get Brexit done ASAP, because a slight majority have woken up it seems.......better to enable  in a smaller cabbage patch than to have all your tools put back in the box by a Marxist and the Brexit party?

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3 hours ago, Dorkins said:

I love the idea that if/when the UK is setting its own regulations for things that are currently decided at EU level, if you don't like a particular regulation you can just vote for a different candidate for MP and that will get the regulation changed. Sure it will.

Having to essentially reject the whole premise of democracy to make your point doesn't make it look like you've got a particularly sound one. Rebuttals that only work by treating the issue in the most extreme and simple way hit back as hard as a feather.

The idea that the EU is democratic because there happens to be a link to more democratic organisations is truly nonsense, no-one who has the vaguest idea of what democracy means could possibly say that with a straight face. A tenuous, second-hand link between policy makers and an electorate is not democratic. But you can repeat that to Remainers until you're blue in the face and all they'll see is "EU is democratic because blah blah blah blah link between policy makers and an electorate blah blah blah." I assume they'd have no problem with an elected House of Lords and an appointed House of Commons?

Edited by Riedquat

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5 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

This is wrong.  For example you might desire to live on Mars, but that's irrational because it's not possible.  In more earthly politics, you also need to be informed by what is possible before you start desiring things that don't exist.  That means accepting the geopolitical reality of the UK's position in the world of 2019.

Why does that make it an irrational desire? You're taking a position that'll mean it'll never be possible to live on Mars. Once the desire is established then you need to work rationally to bring it about. This may include putting it on the back burner so you can devote your energy mostly to other things you find desirable and easier to achieve.

There's no rationality or otherwise about desires, they just are. Rationality only comes in to figuring out how to pursue them. 100% objective, rational behaviour that isn't a means to an end determined by subjective assessment doesn't exist - what's the point in doing anything at all if it doesn't get you something you want, or work towards getting you something you want? And what is "want" if not a subjective desire?

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39 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

Why does that make it an irrational desire? You're taking a position that'll mean it'll never be possible to live on Mars. Once the desire is established then you need to work rationally to bring it about. This may include putting it on the back burner so you can devote your energy mostly to other things you find desirable and easier to achieve.

There's no rationality or otherwise about desires, they just are. Rationality only comes in to figuring out how to pursue them. 100% objective, rational behaviour that isn't a means to an end determined by subjective assessment doesn't exist - what's the point in doing anything at all if it doesn't get you something you want, or work towards getting you something you want? And what is "want" if not a subjective desire?

Oh my goodness, jolly obfuscatory, its the Aristotle and Plato disagreement brainwashing us again !

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8 hours ago, dugsbody said:

I don't know enough to say if we'd be better or worse off in the long term. But in the short term, almost certainly worse off. So we've had the young being screwed by decades of asset inflation and being cut out of many things the older generations enjoyed, where mostly older people vote for these policies. Then as a final hurrah, they vote once again against the interests and wishes of the young, to cause yet another (probable) decade of economic hardship on a generation they've already screwed many times.

And why? Because of some misplaced sense of nationalism and anti-foreigner sentiment. And all backed by a campaign that was dishonest to the core by people who are dishonest to the core.

So ****** the long term, I'd never support something like that on principle.

If brexit doesn’t crash the housing market; nothing will.

Why are you on HPC?

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6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Having to essentially reject the whole premise of democracy to make your point doesn't make it look like you've got a particularly sound one. Rebuttals that only work by treating the issue in the most extreme and simple way hit back as hard as a feather.

The idea that the EU is democratic because there happens to be a link to more democratic organisations is truly nonsense, no-one who has the vaguest idea of what democracy means could possibly say that with a straight face. A tenuous, second-hand link between policy makers and an electorate is not democratic. But you can repeat that to Remainers until you're blue in the face and all they'll see is "EU is democratic because blah blah blah blah link between policy makers and an electorate blah blah blah." I assume they'd have no problem with an elected House of Lords and an appointed House of Commons?

I'm not rejecting the premise of representative democracy, I am perfectly happy with the idea that voters decide who is in charge and then the people in charge decide what happens. That means voters do not get to decide what the regulation says. Same in Westminster and Brussels.

I am fine with the UK's representative in Brussels being the UK government itself. All foreign policy and trade negotiation works like that. After Brexit you won't be directly electing the UK's trade negotiators, they will be nominated by the UK government just like all civil servants. The European Commission is basically just a civil service for running the single market. The national governments decide on policy and the EC implements it.

Edited by Dorkins

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8 hours ago, yodigo said:

Don't know where you live, but where I work all the youngsters (20ish) are buying houses - gasp even new builds, and loaded with student debt too, and have new cars - so drop your nonsense where it belongs.

Spotted the brexit supporting old fart.

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1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

If brexit doesn’t crash the housing market; nothing will.

Why are you on HPC?

I've already explained my views on this. Multiple times.

Why do you ask the same questions repeatedly?

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2 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I've already explained my views on this. Multiple times.

Why do you ask the same questions repeatedly?

Have I? My apologies.

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5 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Spotted the brexit supporting old fart.

There has always been this type of troll on HPC saying "where I live 20somethings are just getting on with their lives" etc. The data show that homeownership has fallen in all regions of the UK.

Edited by Dorkins

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9 hours ago, dugsbody said:

That is all very interesting, except, he quite clearly indicates that we're only brexiting because the brexit campaign refused to commit to any destination and allowed an otherwise fractured group of people to all believe their vision of brexit would be the one.

I'm afraid that neither he nor you know that. The clue is in the word "indicates". You would have know how many votes were swayed by the absence of detail; it may be some; it may not.

Destinations were talked about all through the campaign so people were not unaware that there were different types of Brexit which would mean different things. Perhaps they thought, like me, that it is the job of the politicians to work out the detail.

What cannot  be denied is that there is a deep and wide euroscepticism by a very significant proportion of the population and has been for many years as disclosed by surveys. To imply that we would have voted to stay if the alternatives had been made clearer is pure speculation.

The wording of the referendum question was determined by the government and the Electoral Commission not the Leave campaign and was on a binary basis. I hardly think it's useful to criticize the leave campaign for campaign for what was on the ballot paper.

10 hours ago, dugsbody said:

Sure, we might be ok in the long term, but the point is we're heading to a path that the majority of the country DO NOT WANT. That is wrong.

This is based on surveys now. It is before any campaign so your views are highly speculative. I seem to remember polls before the first referendum which indicated a majority for leave....

What is wrong is to make assumptions when there is little evidence for them.

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6 hours ago, Riedquat said:

Why does that make it an irrational desire? You're taking a position that'll mean it'll never be possible to live on Mars. Once the desire is established then you need to work rationally to bring it about. This may include putting it on the back burner so you can devote your energy mostly to other things you find desirable and easier to achieve.

There's no rationality or otherwise about desires, they just are. Rationality only comes in to figuring out how to pursue them. 100% objective, rational behaviour that isn't a means to an end determined by subjective assessment doesn't exist - what's the point in doing anything at all if it doesn't get you something you want, or work towards getting you something you want? And what is "want" if not a subjective desire?

Except we have a bunch of idiots in charge who are threatening to burn Earth on the 31st October having no space craft, space suits or even an idea or agreement of what planet we should travel to or if it's possible that that planet can support us.

I suggest that a degree of rationality is needed ........ how do you propose that we bring people together or reach an agreed common position unless we have a rational thought out position that looks likely to work, even if it is not to the liking of the extreemes?

It is 'irrational want' to got us to this place but it is not going to get us to a destination. Your argument, just like Brexit, may work on a theoretical level, but in actuality it has little value.  

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  • 224 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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