GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Dorkins said: Yes, the USA shows what can be achieved when people from across Europe unite to form a continent-sized federal superstate. I believe a tremendous amount of the USA’s wealth power and achievement comes from it’s disproportionate abundance of natural resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, Dorkins said: I'd be surprised if we don't get real time automated translation within our lifetime, basically an electronic version of the babelfish from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. At that point anybody will be able to talk to anybody and language borders will matter little. European countries have millennia of shared culture: the Roman Empire, Christianity, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution etc. Nationalism is one of the strongest forces there is. Babelfish will not eradicate nationalism anytime soon. The US is a nation state and really always has been. Europe is not. And as for a European shared culture it is not so common as to nullify nationalism. The question about a US of E is not so much when it is possible as if it is possible. I doubt if it is possible unless it stretches over centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I believe a tremendous amount of the USA’s wealth power and achievement comes from it’s disproportionate abundance of natural resources. Of which the most significant is its White human capital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Dorkins said: Yes, the USA shows what can be achieved when people from across Europe unite to form a continent-sized federal superstate. *like-minded Many people who went over came back, because they couldn't hack it without pervasive cronyism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: I believe a tremendous amount of the USA’s wealth power and achievement comes from it’s disproportionate abundance of natural resources. Europe has coal/lignite, iron ore, gas, wind, buckets of arable land, fresh water, fish, forests etc. It has plenty of natural resources, one of the reasons why the industrial revolution was able to start in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 2 hours ago, crouch said: As a matter of fact you're wrong again. You say: "The EU provides the bonds that prevent conflict from within." It does not. What provides that bond is prosperity but the EU is not largely responsible for that. Hands in the air and spluttering; "not responsible!!!". The sources of the prosperity of Europe since the war are: the rebuilding of a shattered continent; demographics; the results from innovations from the nineteenth century and international trade ( which the EU is partly responsible for). As much as I value what you think. I prefer to believe the stated aim when the EU was set up. There will always be some conjecture over the amount of prosperity brought by the EU what is not in doubt is that peace was the goal and relative peace has been achieved. The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, crouch said: Nationalism is one of the strongest forces there is. Babelfish will not eradicate nationalism anytime soon. The US is a nation state and really always has been. Europe is not. And as for a European shared culture it is not so common as to nullify nationalism. The question about a US of E is not so much when it is possible as if it is possible. I doubt if it is possible unless it stretches over centuries. Nationalism is what governments encourage the world over and use it to control the population. Sport, soccer in particular, is used to drum up nationalistic fervour to further control the people. Perhaps that explains why I dislike both of the above. I do enjoy motor sport, but instinctively want the British drivers to lose. Edited May 17, 2019 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, crouch said: Nationalism is one of the strongest forces there is. Babelfish will not eradicate nationalism anytime soon. The US is a nation state and really always has been. Europe is not. And as for a European shared culture it is not so common as to nullify nationalism. The question about a US of E is not so much when it is possible as if it is possible. I doubt if it is possible unless it stretches over centuries. There's no need for nationalism to be eradicated. The EU is a framework through which nations cooperate to do business together. Americans identify with their state and region (Texas, Midwest, New England, South etc), doesn't mean they aren't also Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Nationalism is what governments encourage the world over and use it to control the population. Sport, soccer in particular, is used to drum up nationalistic fervour to further control the people. Perhaps that explains why I dislike both of the above. Me too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Just now, Dorkins said: There's no need for nationalism to be eradicated. The EU is a framework through which nations cooperate to do business together. Americans identify with their state and region (Texas, Midwest, New England, South etc), doesn't mean they aren't also Americans. Yes, I think a better way to express it is that identity is one of the strongest forces there is, and whether that predominately takes the form of nation, religion, race, ideology, etc, is a factor of circumstance and education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 24 minutes ago, crouch said: The US is a nation state and really always has been. The native Indian populations had to be exterminated first. The American bastards haven't stopped killing since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 So how does one go about getting a rich sugar daddy like Nigel? In the interview Nigel said the money came from “Russia”, did he pass himself off as Svetlana on one of those Hot Russian babe dating sites? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: It means having no friends. We had friends in Europe. Now we have told them to feck off. No.We have friends in Europe and after Brexit we'll still have friends in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 46 minutes ago, IMHAL said: As much as I value what you think. I prefer to believe the stated aim when the EU was set up. There will always be some conjecture over the amount of prosperity brought by the EU what is not in doubt is that peace was the goal and relative peace has been achieved. I find this amazing. Let me get this right; because the EU was set up with the objective of peace and we have had peace therefore the EU is responsible? What can be stated with a great deal of confidence is that the EU has made some contribution to peace in Europe via its encouragement of trade. Yes. However, you imply that the EU was responsible for that peace. But that assumes what requires to be demonstrated and you can only demonstrate that with a counterfactual and you cannot do that. You assume far too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Dorkins said: I'd be surprised if we don't get real time automated translation within our lifetime, basically an electronic version of the babelfish from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. At that point anybody will be able to talk to anybody and language borders will matter little. European countries have millennia of shared culture: the Roman Empire, Christianity, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution etc. Speech recognition, automatic translation, and speech synthesis are all possible and exist now. I think you can get an app for a phone that puts them all together? Of course the results are far from perfect at present but whilst Google Translate for example often throws up some rather humorous or odd-looking translations, and occasionally completely fails, it's very often sufficient to at least understand the message, even if it's a bit clunky right now. It'll improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 57 minutes ago, Dorkins said: Europe has coal/lignite, iron ore, gas, wind, buckets of arable land, fresh water, fish, forests etc. It has plenty of natural resources, one of the reasons why the industrial revolution was able to start in Europe. I’m not disputing that. But the USA has fewer people but more wealth, power etc. All the geopolitical things that Crouch mentioned are important. As is stinking amounts of gold, oil, metal ore, coal, and other lovely resources... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, crouch said: I find this amazing. Let me get this right; because the EU was set up with the objective of peace and we have had peace therefore the EU is responsible? What can be stated with a great deal of confidence is that the EU has made some contribution to peace in Europe via its encouragement of trade. Yes. The EU is not just about encouragement of trade, but about removing the nation state as an intermediary in cross-border activity within Europe which empowers citizens versus the state. If you trade between two countries that have an FTA, you are still at the mercy of the trade policies of those governments in a way that you are not if you trade within the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I’m not disputing that. But the USA has fewer people but more wealth, power etc. I'm guessing it helps that hundreds of millions of Americans are united under a single government with aircraft carriers. So logically, if you want Europe to be as powerful as the USA... A united Europe could even have a decent manned spaceflight programme that I know you are a fan of. Edited May 17, 2019 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 51 minutes ago, Dorkins said: There's no need for nationalism to be eradicated. The EU is a framework through which nations cooperate to do business together. Americans identify with their state and region (Texas, Midwest, New England, South etc), doesn't mean they aren't also Americans. Nationalism is culture, identity, history, customs, language. Americans have a largely common language, a common culture, customs and identity. Whilst there are differences between regions in the US those differences are far less than the differences between European countries. The overarching question you have to ask is about identity. How would a New Yorker and an Arizonan identify themselves? I would guess as Americans foremost(they both would have the US flag in the front garden). A Frenchman and a Pole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, crouch said: The overarching question you have to ask is about identity. How would a New Yorker and an Arizonan identify themselves? I would guess as Americans foremost(they both would have the US flag in the front garden). A Frenchman and a Pole? It all depends on context. In a sports bar in DC the New Yorker and Arizonan are from New York and Arizona. On holiday in London they are Americans. When the two Americans, the French and the Pole go on a business trip to Japan they are Westerners. When they meet a landing party of Martians they are human. Americans do talk about "Europe" as a place with common features. I asked a Chinese born and bred coworker of mine based temporarily in the UK if he was planning to travel around Europe while he was here and he said he wasn't that interested as it all looked pretty much the same to him. Edited May 17, 2019 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, crouch said: Americans have a largely common language, a common culture, customs and identity. Whilst there are differences between regions in the US those differences are far less than the differences between European countries. I would suggest you spend more time travelling around America and/or Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dorkins said: I'm guessing it helps that hundreds of millions of Americans are united under a single government with aircraft carriers. So logically, if you want Europe to be as powerful as the USA... A united Europe could even have a decent manned spaceflight programme that I know you are a fan of. Or like the Soviet Union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Just now, Dorkins said: It all depends on context. In a sports bar in DC the New Yorker and Arizonan are from New York and Arizona. On holiday in London they are Americans. When the two Americans, the French and the Pole go on a business trip to Japan they are Westerners. People identify on the basis of nationality. It doesn't matter what they call themselves on holiday or how they chit chat in a bar or how they play golf together - ultimately they identify themselves as Americans. And when the French and the Pole go to Japan on business they are regarded by the Japanese as Westerners but regard themselves as French or Polish I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Or like the Soviet Union? Just like the Soviet Union, except capitalist and democratic and with both individuals and member states free to leave if they want. So actually not like the Soviet Union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I would suggest you spend more time travelling around America and/or Europe. Edited May 17, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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