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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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9 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

So anyway, which Brexiteer will become PM? ...and that will kill off the second referendum...

Can you think of anyone in the HOC who could fulfill the role of PM? I can't.

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1 minute ago, crouch said:

Can you think of anyone in the HOC who could fulfill the role of PM? I can't.

Nope...I can't see a remainer being elected by the Conservative membership either..

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2 minutes ago, crouch said:

I'm afraid he's right. NATO is the main reason we've had peace for the last seventy years. A US commander of NATO is a symbol that the US stood behind us against the Soviet Union. And of course MAD.

The EU was originally a US project to build a prosperous Europe to buttress the military alliance and act as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism. I've read somewhere that the Schuman Declaration  which started the ECSC, the forerunner of the EU, was actually written by Dean Acheson, the US Secretary of State. 

Furthermore in 1948 the US founded a private organisation: The American Committee on United Europe the purpose of which was to counter communism in Europe. This was the sponsor of the ECSC. It received substantial funds from the CIA.

It's a bit ironic that many on here deplore the US and can see us falling to them after leaving the EU when the fact is that the EU itself is a US project.

NATO - it's purpose below. Peace within Europe and Nato members? It matters not who instigated the EU project but it has worked, we have had relative peace within the EU. You yourself seem to think that nationalism is a strong force and I maintain that it needs combating.... it needs concerted effort and we are wlking way from that.  

In response to this, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was formed. NATO is a formal alliance between the territories of North American and Europe. From its inception, its main purpose was to defend each other from the possibility of communist Soviet Union taking control of their nation.

 

 

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If anyone believes Boris will actually run, they're foolish.

He'll want nothing to do with sorting this mess out, likewise Farage. Its a lot easier to shout from the back, without ever having to do anything.

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Just now, Dave Beans said:

Nope...I can't see a remainer being elected by the Conservative membership either..

Let's face it it's been years since we've had anyone in No 10 whose had the heft to be PM.

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1 minute ago, crouch said:

Let's face it it's been years since we've had anyone in No 10 whose had the heft to be PM.

Who's the least worst Brexiteer?  Gove? I think he's a slight moderate..

Edited by Dave Beans

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1 minute ago, cbathpc said:

If anyone believes Boris will actually run, they're foolish.

He'll want nothing to do with sorting this mess out, likewise Farage. Its a lot easier to shout from the back, without ever having to do anything.

I hope that they do......I can't wait. It's the only way that this will be laid to rest. The day that a recognised Brexiteer is PM is the day that Brexit stops being a imaginary unicorn and becomes a real donkey.

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6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

NATO - it's purpose below. Peace within Europe and Nato members? It matters not who instigated the EU project but it has worked, we have had relative peace within the EU. You yourself seem to think that nationalism is a strong force and I maintain that it needs combating.... it needs concerted effort and we are wlking way from that.  

You maintain that the EU has been the main instrument of peace since the war. That is wrong.

The main threat was from the Soviet Union and the thinking was - and it was correct - that the only thing that would counter the SU was military deterrence. The EU is not a military alliance.

The EU built on the peace created by NATO; it was not the case of that peace.

Edited by crouch

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4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

Who's the least worst Brexiteer?  Gove? I think he's a slight moderate..

Yes but you're taking about "least worst". Do we really want a PM that's the "least worst"? I don't but there may be no choice.

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Just now, crouch said:

Yes but you're taking about "least worst". Do we really want a PM that's the "least worst"? I don't but there may be no choice.

That's how low the bar has sunk..

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1 minute ago, crouch said:

You maintain that the EU has been the main instrument of peace since the war. That is wrong.

The main threat was from the Soviet Union and the thinking was - and it was correct - that the only thing that would counter the SU was military deterrence. The EU is not a military alliance.

The EU build on the peace created by NATO; it was not the case of that peace.

The EU was not designed to stop the threat of the soviet union but rather integrate the states of Europe to stop the centuries old cycle of war between them. So far, it appears to be working, but people who dislike the EU will of course prefer to believe something else.

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1 minute ago, Dave Beans said:

That's how low the bar has sunk..

Inevitable when you run a campaign based fundamentally on dishonesty. The people have been stirred and expect the lies to be fulfilled. Now what?

Edited by dugsbody

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Just now, crouch said:

You maintain that the EU has been the main instrument of peace since the war. That is wrong.

The main threat was from the Soviet Union and the thinking was - and it was correct - that the only thing that would counter the SU was military deterrence. The EU is not a military alliance.

The EU build on the peace created by NATO; it was not the case of that peace.

You said that not me. I said that peace within Europe cannot be taken for granted. The EU was set up to help with that process. We (you) are now taking that for granted and claiming it is not an issue. There are many threats , one of which is conflict within. Nato serves it's purpose and so does the EU. We are walking away from our responsibilities for peace within. 

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10 minutes ago, crouch said:

I'm afraid he's right. NATO is the main reason we've had peace for the last seventy years. A US commander of NATO is a symbol that the US stood behind us against the Soviet Union. And of course MAD.

The EU was originally a US project to build a prosperous Europe to buttress the military alliance and act as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism. I've read somewhere that the Schuman Declaration  which started the ECSC, the forerunner of the EU, was actually written by Dean Acheson, the US Secretary of State. 

Furthermore in 1948 the US founded a private organisation: The American Committee on United Europe the purpose of which was to counter communism in Europe. This was the sponsor of the ECSC. It received substantial funds from the CIA.

It's a bit ironic that many on here deplore the US and can see us falling to them after leaving the EU when the fact is that the EU itself is a US project.

So we’re rolling back a NATO/US policy and damaging the peaceful and prosperous relations  between the nations in Europe ?

Wasn’t Cameron pilloried for raising the spectre of WW3 ?

Conversely what motivation would there be for pining for the breakup of the EU or getting hysterical over an EU aircraft carrier ?

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1 minute ago, dugsbody said:

The EU was not designed to stop the threat of the soviet union but rather integrate the states of Europe to stop the centuries old cycle of war between them. So far, it appears to be working, but people who dislike the EU will of course prefer to believe something else.

Did you read my post?

The EU was a US project to buttress Europe against the Soviet Union.

Shortly after the war the US Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau proposed a plan for the pastoralisation of Germany - the elimination of its industrial strength. With the emerging threat of the SU this was rethought and the Marshall Plan and the EU were born out of this thinking to build up the European economy not merely to buttress the military alliance but to enhance prosperity to deter countries from turning communist internally.

The EU is "a" peace project but it was not "the" peace project and what has worked for the last seventy years is not the EU but NATO and the US.

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8 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

You said that not me. I said that peace within Europe cannot be taken for granted. The EU was set up to help with that process. We (you) are now taking that for granted and claiming it is not an issue. There are many threats , one of which is conflict within. Nato serves it's purpose and so does the EU. We are walking away from our responsibilities for peace within. 

NATO is based on the principle of "an attack on one is an attack on all".

Suppose one EU member attacks another would they fight; would they be allowed to fight? Somehow I think NATO would step in.

The EU is a peace project but it is not the guarantor of peace.

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30 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

It is not an extraordinary statement at all. Two world wars, millions dead. The EU was set up as a peace project and we are 'opting out'. So yes..... it is disrespectful to put it mildy. Nationalism is on the rise within Europe and we helped and are helping to accelerate that.. we and the yanks played a significant part in making that a problem for Europe by stirring up conflct in Iraq, Afganistan etc and by our attitude to banks and the loose money we unleashed. The GFC and QE sirred up another hornets nest and made the already poor much poorer. The whole tsunami of war and economic immigrants and has led to a problem for all and we are 'walking away'. Thank you very much Uk world citizen. 

I do feel that way about Norway. Today is the Norweigan constitution day, 200 yrs old today. They where invaded by the Germans, it took all of one day to accomplish  the task as they where totally unprepared. The Norwegian people got off lightly because .... well, you can guess why... we are all responsible for the continued peace and prosperity within the EU. It is time to stop bashing and time to start mending, because the possible alternative is not very appealing. 

First came NATO then came the EU. Both provide peace. NATO has provided the protective blanket of security, to facilitate the politics and partnership which does the rest.

I’m not sure what you are implying with Norway during WW2.

Norway is a founding member of NATO. As such it has helped protect Europe since 1949 when the Coal and Steel Community was a fantasy.

I like the Norwegians. I want us to be like Norway.

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1 hour ago, FANG said:

Well I voted for Brexit and so did all of my family, friends and colleagues.

AND we are not for turning.

Its now time for Nigel and Boris to take over  - The Brexit dream team.

You know it makes sense, so embrace the change folks.

 

 

If Farage and Johnson are the dream team you're eating too much cheese before bed-time. :P

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7 minutes ago, crouch said:

Did you read my post?

The EU was a US project to buttress Europe against the Soviet Union.

That might be part of it (could you quote your sources). But here is the information I'm working off:

Quote

1945 - 1959

A peaceful Europe – the beginnings of cooperation

The European Union is set up with the aim of ending the frequent and bloody wars between neighbours, which culminated in the Second World War. As of 1950, the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. The six founding countries are Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. The 1950s are dominated by a cold war between east and west. Protests in Hungary against the Communist regime are put down by Soviet tanks in 1956. In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

 

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13 minutes ago, pig said:

So we’re rolling back a NATO/US policy and damaging the peaceful and prosperous relations  between the nations in Europe ?

What does this mean?

 

14 minutes ago, pig said:

Conversely what motivation would there be for pining for the breakup of the EU or getting hysterical over an EU aircraft carrier ?

I'm not pining for anything; I don't do pining.

And I'm far too old to get hysterical about anything, especially an EU aircraft carrier.

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4 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

That might be part of it (could you quote your sources). But here is the information I'm working off:

 

There's no inconsistency between your quote and my postings.

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  • 240 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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