OnionTerror Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 34 minutes ago, pig said: The question is whether a Brexiteer PM could force no-deal on Parliament and the country when it’s seems clear it’s against the will of both. I think it’s possible but we’d be in a terrible state and it would make revoking A50 look like a picnic. They dont need to force a no deal; they can just let the clock tick down (as its the default), and not allow any more significant votes on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: They dont need to force a no deal; they can just let the clock tick down (as its the default), and not allow any more significant votes on the subject. They could be brought down by a confidence vote though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, IMHAL said: By voting to leave and not helping shape the EU for our common good you are also abdication responsibility for peace within Europe....the EU is a peace project.......so far as you are concerned it's not our problem.......that is disrespectful.......you sound like a shirker....and one who uses ww2 images to suit your agenda in a shameful way. That’s an extraordinary statement to make. Do you feel that way about our NATO partner Norway? I’m not disrespecting ww2! I rarely mention it. It’s three weeks until the 75th anniversary of DDay. I was responding to the negative comments about America’s warfighting. Scroll back - it’s all there! On the 6th of June 1944 IMHO it was America’s finest hour. There’s a great deal of America bashing that takes place on here. I was attempting to highlight the US in a more favourable light. As the Americans would say, they stepped up to the plate. I was respecting this tremendous bravery, not disrespecting it. And it has nothing to do with my views on the EU. Edited May 17, 2019 by GrizzlyDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Peter Hun said: I've learnt by now that I should assume you fully understand the subject you are discussing. In this case, the French defense industry, who are very keen on a EU army if it's equipment is entirely supplied by the French with the aid of the Germans and other EU suppliers. The same sales talk ******** was present at the birth of the Eurofighter and I'm sure the same desire to force EU nations to buy French is still there today.. Isn't going to happen. Defense is outside EU influence. And France will screw themselves if they get in bed with the Germans, hippies will block their exports. I must confess I am not an expert on carriers! Though I do find the fascinating from an engineering perspective. You may be right, I may be wrong. I don’t like the chatter on this (armies, carriers). Btw defence is now part of the EU. https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/nine-european-countries-to-formalise-eu-defence-force-plan/ https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage_en/35285/Towards a stronger EU on security and defence https://www.rte.ie/amp/1031587/ https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/21/europe-finally-pulls-the-trigger-on-a-military-force-eu-army-trump https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/25/nine-eu-states-to-sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Dave Beans said: So anyway, which Brexiteer will become PM? ...and that will kill off the second referendum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FANG Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Well I voted for Brexit and so did all of my family, friends and colleagues. AND we are not for turning. Its now time for Nigel and Boris to take over - The Brexit dream team. You know it makes sense, so embrace the change folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, FANG said: Well I voted for Brexit and so did all of my family, friends and colleagues. AND we are not for turning. Its now time for Nigel and Boris to take over - The Brexit dream team. You know it makes sense, so embrace the change folks. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 6 hours ago, Dave Beans said: They dont need to force a no deal; they can just let the clock tick down (as its the default), and not allow any more significant votes on the subject. Forget about the how: It would be foolish undemocratic and unpopular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 52 minutes ago, FANG said: Well I voted for Brexit and so did all of my family, friends and colleagues. AND we are not for turning. Its now time for Nigel and Boris to take over - The Brexit dream team. You know it makes sense, so embrace the change folks. Such appointments would at least make them accountable for when it all goes badly.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, pig said: Forget about the how: It would be foolish undemocratic and unpopular. Would they care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Would they care? I really don’t know. A significant minority of voters have been groomed and radicalised over this . Can they chase this vote and take for granted their current ‘Conservative’ vote ? Hope that it all blows over by the next test at the ballot box ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: That’s an extraordinary statement to make. Do you feel that way about our NATO partner Norway? I’m not disrespecting ww2! I rarely mention it. It’s three weeks until the 75th anniversary of DDay. I was responding to the negative comments about America’s warfighting. Scroll back - it’s all there! On the 6th of June 1944 IMHO it was America’s finest hour. There’s a great deal of America bashing that takes place on here. I was attempting to highlight the US in a more favourable light. As the Americans would say, they stepped up to the plate. I was respecting this tremendous bravery, not disrespecting it. And it has nothing to do with my views on the EU. It is not an extraordinary statement at all. Two world wars, millions dead. The EU was set up as a peace project and we are 'opting out'. So yes..... it is disrespectful to put it mildy. Nationalism is on the rise within Europe and we helped and are helping to accelerate that.. we and the yanks played a significant part in making that a problem for Europe by stirring up conflct in Iraq, Afganistan etc and by our attitude to banks and the loose money we unleashed. The GFC and QE sirred up another hornets nest and made the already poor much poorer. The whole tsunami of war and economic immigrants and has led to a problem for all and we are 'walking away'. Thank you very much Uk world citizen. I do feel that way about Norway. Today is the Norweigan constitution day, 200 yrs old today. They where invaded by the Germans, it took all of one day to accomplish the task as they where totally unprepared. The Norwegian people got off lightly because .... well, you can guess why... we are all responsible for the continued peace and prosperity within the EU. It is time to stop bashing and time to start mending, because the possible alternative is not very appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 9 hours ago, IMHAL said: You take peace within Europe for granted.... that is disrespectful of those that gave their lives to gain peace and to those who put in place the mechanisms to ensure it continues..... for and your children.....you schmuck... I'm afraid he's right. NATO is the main reason we've had peace for the last seventy years. A US commander of NATO is a symbol that the US stood behind us against the Soviet Union. And of course MAD. The EU was originally a US project to build a prosperous Europe to buttress the military alliance and act as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism. I've read somewhere that the Schuman Declaration which started the ECSC, the forerunner of the EU, was actually written by Dean Acheson, the US Secretary of State. Furthermore in 1948 the US founded a private organisation: The American Committee on United Europe the purpose of which was to counter communism in Europe. This was the sponsor of the ECSC. It received substantial funds from the CIA. It's a bit ironic that many on here deplore the US and can see us falling to them after leaving the EU when the fact is that the EU itself is a US project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 9 hours ago, Dave Beans said: So anyway, which Brexiteer will become PM? ...and that will kill off the second referendum... Can you think of anyone in the HOC who could fulfill the role of PM? I can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: Can you think of anyone in the HOC who could fulfill the role of PM? I can't. Nope...I can't see a remainer being elected by the Conservative membership either.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, crouch said: I'm afraid he's right. NATO is the main reason we've had peace for the last seventy years. A US commander of NATO is a symbol that the US stood behind us against the Soviet Union. And of course MAD. The EU was originally a US project to build a prosperous Europe to buttress the military alliance and act as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism. I've read somewhere that the Schuman Declaration which started the ECSC, the forerunner of the EU, was actually written by Dean Acheson, the US Secretary of State. Furthermore in 1948 the US founded a private organisation: The American Committee on United Europe the purpose of which was to counter communism in Europe. This was the sponsor of the ECSC. It received substantial funds from the CIA. It's a bit ironic that many on here deplore the US and can see us falling to them after leaving the EU when the fact is that the EU itself is a US project. NATO - it's purpose below. Peace within Europe and Nato members? It matters not who instigated the EU project but it has worked, we have had relative peace within the EU. You yourself seem to think that nationalism is a strong force and I maintain that it needs combating.... it needs concerted effort and we are wlking way from that. In response to this, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization was formed. NATO is a formal alliance between the territories of North American and Europe. From its inception, its main purpose was to defend each other from the possibility of communist Soviet Union taking control of their nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbathpc Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 If anyone believes Boris will actually run, they're foolish. He'll want nothing to do with sorting this mess out, likewise Farage. Its a lot easier to shout from the back, without ever having to do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Just now, Dave Beans said: Nope...I can't see a remainer being elected by the Conservative membership either.. Let's face it it's been years since we've had anyone in No 10 whose had the heft to be PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, crouch said: Let's face it it's been years since we've had anyone in No 10 whose had the heft to be PM. Who's the least worst Brexiteer? Gove? I think he's a slight moderate.. Edited May 17, 2019 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 minute ago, cbathpc said: If anyone believes Boris will actually run, they're foolish. He'll want nothing to do with sorting this mess out, likewise Farage. Its a lot easier to shout from the back, without ever having to do anything. I hope that they do......I can't wait. It's the only way that this will be laid to rest. The day that a recognised Brexiteer is PM is the day that Brexit stops being a imaginary unicorn and becomes a real donkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, IMHAL said: NATO - it's purpose below. Peace within Europe and Nato members? It matters not who instigated the EU project but it has worked, we have had relative peace within the EU. You yourself seem to think that nationalism is a strong force and I maintain that it needs combating.... it needs concerted effort and we are wlking way from that. You maintain that the EU has been the main instrument of peace since the war. That is wrong. The main threat was from the Soviet Union and the thinking was - and it was correct - that the only thing that would counter the SU was military deterrence. The EU is not a military alliance. The EU built on the peace created by NATO; it was not the case of that peace. Edited May 17, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Who's the least worst Brexiteer? Gove? I think he's a slight moderate.. Yes but you're taking about "least worst". Do we really want a PM that's the "least worst"? I don't but there may be no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 Just now, crouch said: Yes but you're taking about "least worst". Do we really want a PM that's the "least worst"? I don't but there may be no choice. That's how low the bar has sunk.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: You maintain that the EU has been the main instrument of peace since the war. That is wrong. The main threat was from the Soviet Union and the thinking was - and it was correct - that the only thing that would counter the SU was military deterrence. The EU is not a military alliance. The EU build on the peace created by NATO; it was not the case of that peace. The EU was not designed to stop the threat of the soviet union but rather integrate the states of Europe to stop the centuries old cycle of war between them. So far, it appears to be working, but people who dislike the EU will of course prefer to believe something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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