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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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19 minutes ago, pig said:

Then do  your best for your country and vote for somebody who you believe best represents you and and the best interests of your country.

Instead you are voting for a fraud, profiting from and neck deep implicated in this mess in the first place and telling us it’s ‘about’ Democracy.

Farage has some weird connections. It's a massive opaque fatberg. Claire Fox is certainly far from what she seems. Arms companies, tobacco companies and pesticide pushers.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/13/astroturfers-of-britain-part-two-who-is-behind-brexit-party-recruitment-and-its-pr-makeover/

The Brexit plan for the country is not for the many. But the few.

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10 minutes ago, Peter Hun said:

You both have to look at the response of Brexiteers to reality. 

Do they accept it and move on or fabricate a new false reality to prop up their self deception?

That's what the Brexit party is all about. Continuing with delusion.

Even if we hard Brexit it will be someone elses fault.

Good point. But we are fecked either way. Farage won't stop his ego-driven, bribe financed drive if we stay - nor will all the other self-serving charlatans.

Sure, the lies will continue and the blame will be elsewhere. The country will slip into the deepest mire. It will be more than nasty. The divide will continue to get worse either way.

However, I now think this country cannot be repaired by the idiots in Westminster. I am expecting a very right wing government after Brexit (which is the whole point). Ultimately giving the liars what they want is the only way to exorcise this shit.

Let the whole place belong to even more of the very rich and its people perish. It's what leavers voted for.

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11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

He explains why he is replying in the first paragraph and he isn't being presumptuous as he would not have included that without approval from the AG. 

 

Still no response from the AG. Perhaps he wants to disassociate himself with Barclay's claims.

Redwood answers Barclay's claims here:

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/05/15/reply-from-the-brexit-secretary-and-my-response/

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1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

You mean second/third referendum.

Be honest about it...

I want a vote between two real deliverable and explicit options, Remain and whatever Brexit option is chosen.

I want those who cheerlead the winning option (whichever that might be) to be held accountable for delivering that option accordingly.

I want those who want to foist a deal on the British People that does not command a majority to be exposed for what they are.... cheats and liars.

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42 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Farage has some weird connections. It's a massive opaque fatberg. Claire Fox is certainly far from what she seems. Arms companies, tobacco companies and pesticide pushers.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/13/astroturfers-of-britain-part-two-who-is-behind-brexit-party-recruitment-and-its-pr-makeover/

The Brexit plan for the country is not for the many. But the few.

I kind of ‘get’ Farage, it feels like I’ve met/observed his ilk before. 

A bit baffled by Claire Fox Spiked etc though. Best case scenario is that they are x soviet era commies who think the the Koch brothers etc are a means to an end and vice versa....

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27 minutes ago, onlooker said:

Still no response from the AG. Perhaps he wants to disassociate himself with Barclay's claims.

Redwood answers Barclay's claims here:

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/05/15/reply-from-the-brexit-secretary-and-my-response/

Do you really regard that as an answer?

Barclay pulled Redwoods claims apart with more than a dozen examples of where he was plain wrong and in response he gives a bit of waffle about the fact that the WA is not and end point and attempts distraction by raising the £39bn required to settle our account. This despite the fact that the AG has told Parliament that  (after taking the best available legal advice) this is money we owe and will pay irrespective of whether we leave with a deal or not.

 

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1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

You mean second/third referendum.

Be honest about it...

Given the current situation, with Parliament deadlocked, how can we move forward without a second referendum? 

 

 

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19 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Define Better Future.

The future we make for ourselves but without the vastly expensive, debilitating and time consuming distraction of Brexit.

Just think that is at least 10 years and the best part of £1tn to address current issues, rather than using that time and money to try and recover from the self inflicted damage caused by Brexit.  

 

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1 hour ago, Peter Hun said:

You both have to look at the response of Brexiteers to reality. 

Do they accept it and move on or fabricate a new false reality to prop up their self deception?

That's what the Brexit party is all about. Continuing with delusion.

Even if we hard Brexit it will be someone elses fault.

That is the big sticking point with this approach. 

 

1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

Thanks for posting.

"The EU’s very existence depends on Britain staying in. Greece and Britain are facing the same three options. The first two are represented aptly by the two warring factions within the Tory party: deference to Brussels and exit. They are equally calamitous options. Both lead to the same dystopian future: a Europe fit only for those who flourish in times of a great Depression – the xenophobes, the ultra-nationalists, the enemies of democratic sovereignty. The third option is the only one worth going for: staying in the EU to form a cross-border alliance of democrats, which Europeans failed to manage in the 1930s, but which our generation must now attempt to prevent history repeating itself."

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11 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

I am disappointed in you. Trolling, having a laugh or did you not actually read your link.

Medical related cost inflation is consistently higher than resulting in (the actual position is actually much worse when you factor in rising need):   

Quote

Health experts have said that “Unless further changes are made, the [Department for Health and Social Care] budget, excluding the NHS England and capital budgets, will fall by £1bn in real terms in 2019/20.”


Also you seem to have forgotten that this was to be funded by savings arising from Brexit. As there have been no savings to date (last estimate I saw said not Brexiting is costing the public finances £17bn pa) where is the money coming from.   

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4 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

"The EU’s very existence depends on Britain staying in. Greece and Britain are facing the same three options. The first two are represented aptly by the two warring factions within the Tory party: deference to Brussels and exit. They are equally calamitous options. Both lead to the same dystopian future: a Europe fit only for those who flourish in times of a great Depression – the xenophobes, the ultra-nationalists, the enemies of democratic sovereignty. The third option is the only one worth going for: staying in the EU to form a cross-border alliance of democrats, which Europeans failed to manage in the 1930s, but which our generation must now attempt to prevent history repeating itself."

What Varoufakis appears to be saying is that both the status quo and exit lead to the same dystopian future. He is saying that neither exit nor remain are the way to go.

The third option is something new and may be possible, maybe not. The difficulty with this is that nationalism is a powerful force, more powerful than democracy. And this cross border alliance will be doing what?

Well, he says:

"with a view to conjuring up a democratic surge across Europe, a common European identity, an authentic European sovereignty, an internationalist bulwark against both submission to Brussels and hyper-nationalist reaction."

There is no common European identity and, as it pulls against nationalism, is unlikely to be one. Nationalism trumps, like it or not.

An "authentic European sovereignty" presumably means something with a clearer and more direct link with the people. In effect an admission that this is not the case now.

"An international bulwark against submission to Brussels". Why on earth in a fraternity of nations do you need a "bulwark against submission" against a body which is supposed to be acting under your authority? Odd.

The "hyper nationalist reaction" cannot be divorced from the policies of the EU itself; these things do not arise spontaneously but have arisen because of the dysfunctionality of the EU itself.

And all this fighting is to achieve what? It would appear to save a supranational body which is supposed to operate under our instructions from itself!

And what, in all this could not be achieved by a Europe of nations? Very little from what I can see.

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9 minutes ago, crouch said:

What Varoufakis appears to be saying is that both the status quo and exit lead to the same dystopian future. He is saying that neither exit nor remain are the way to go.

The third option is something new and may be possible, maybe not. The difficulty with this is that nationalism is a powerful force, more powerful than democracy. And this cross border alliance will be doing what?

Well, he says:

"with a view to conjuring up a democratic surge across Europe, a common European identity, an authentic European sovereignty, an internationalist bulwark against both submission to Brussels and hyper-nationalist reaction."

There is no common European identity and, as it pulls against nationalism, is unlikely to be one. Nationalism trumps, like it or not.

An "authentic European sovereignty" presumably means something with a clearer and more direct link with the people. In effect an admission that this is not the case now.

"An international bulwark against submission to Brussels". Why on earth in a fraternity of nations do you need a "bulwark against submission" against a body which is supposed to be acting under your authority? Odd.

The "hyper nationalist reaction" cannot be divorced from the policies of the EU itself; these things do not arise spontaneously but have arisen because of the dysfunctionality of the EU itself.

And all this fighting is to achieve what? It would appear to save a supranational body which is supposed to operate under our instructions from itself!

And what, in all this could not be achieved by a Europe of nations? Very little from what I can see.

What is your proposal in a "Europe of nations" for how to eliminate the need for customs and associated checks for goods travelling across borders?

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20 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

What is your proposal in a "Europe of nations" for how to eliminate the need for customs and associated checks for goods travelling across borders?

A customs union.

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3 hours ago, IMHAL said:

So the wa is pants.....no deal is the wa with knobs on...... the British People are behind a liar with no manfesto who is behind no deal and there is sweet fa else in the pipeline...... sounds like this leave thing is going swimmingly.

I think many will be voting for the BP as a protest that democracy is dieing.

1 hour ago, IMHAL said:

I want a vote between two real deliverable and explicit options, Remain and whatever Brexit option is chosen.

I want those who cheerlead the winning option (whichever that might be) to be held accountable for delivering that option accordingly.

I want those who want to foist a deal on the British People that does not command a majority to be exposed for what they are.... cheats and liars.

The key is to agree the future relationship.

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Given the current situation, with Parliament deadlocked, how can we move forward without a second referendum? 

 

 

A GE could strip out some of the impasse dead wood.

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The future we make for ourselves but without the vastly expensive, debilitating and time consuming distraction of Brexit.

Just think that is at least 10 years and the best part of £1tn to address current issues, rather than using that time and money to try and recover from the self inflicted damage caused by Brexit.  

 

Do you only see things in financial terms?

1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

Looks like the **** end of nowhere  next to a busy round about,,,

Is your name yelims?

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18 hours ago, jonb2 said:

Read it properly.

Like everything else, the government has under-invested - therefore it *would* have had a bill from the EU. The emergency funds were released to sure up hitting its emissions obligations.

Now read the last 2 paragraphs.

Answer me this honestly - if you were living nearby - would you rather the place had low emissions or high ones?

The CO2 emissions are not the worry for those living nearby.

Like many people I think you are getting confused between CO2 emissions and proper pollutants.  You see the same confusion with diesel engines.  Diesels are GOOD for CO2 emissions but bad for pollutants.  Replacing diesel engines with petrol engines will increase CO2 emissions, but local pollution levels would be reduced.

Whatever the excuse, these EU charges will lead to the closure of steel plants in the UK.  The jobs will be exported, and the CO2 emissions will remain the same or more likely increase.

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58 minutes ago, crouch said:

What Varoufakis appears to be saying is.....

With all due respect... Varoufakis is saying that we need to be inside and 'fighting for it' to shape it in order to help save it. The other options are being inside and aquiecsing or leaving which lead to the same dystopia. 

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7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

You couldn’t make it up...

3b4eea720c9e6993a2237246492975.jpg?15574

CLAUDIA GAMON: “A FEDERAL EUROPE IS WITHIN REACH. IN FACT, WE HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSER.”

 

 

https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/claudia-gamon-a-federal-europe-is-within-reach-in-fact-we-have-never-been

You can't dismiss this; it's a perfectly respectable position to take.

Whether it's within reach is debatable but, again, I don't dismiss it. The reason is that if the EZ gets into real trouble, which I believe is a distinct possibility, there might, just might, be a "forced" fiscal union in order to save the Euro. If the Euro goes down it will take the EU with it. I can't see it because the German's wouldn't agree but, if it does come about,then that is a very important step to a US of E. It is arguably a necessary condition for such but by no means a sufficient one but it is very important.

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8 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

What about an aircraft carrier?

Surely it needs an aircraft carrier?

Doubt that as well.

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  • 276 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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