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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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Just now, GrizzlyDave said:

Yes, parliments can vote a nation out of existence and into existence. It’s happened many times. Do I think parliment should do it without the endorsement of the people? No. Which is why I lament our missed vote on the Lisbon Treaty which took us within a hairs breadth of losing our Nation to the USofE.

The Lisbon treaty was a fairly minor evolution.  Why do you see Lisbon specifically as existential, when it was our initial accession that was the really big step?

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48 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Not conceptually.  The problem is that while our membership is in doubt, any criticism of a policy would get taken to be an argument to leave.  First we need to accept that we're part of it and will remain part of it. 

OK. This is from 2001. Might not be active today, but might be an interesting sign of the potential nature of the EU.

"THE European Court of Justice ruled yesterday that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

He got a bit excited....

"However, it dropped an argument put forward three months ago by the advocate-general, Damaso Ruiz-Jarabo Colomer, which implied that Mr Connolly's (his view) criticism of the EU was akin to extreme blasphemy, and therefore not protected speech."

I suppose if that were the case and, say, the EU had a book out on Amazon. Anything less then a 5 star review could land you in prison.

Edited by Arpeggio

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39 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

The Lisbon treaty was a fairly minor evolution.  Why do you see Lisbon specifically as existential, when it was our initial accession that was the really big step?

Personally - I saw Lisbon as further integrating - and we were promised a say; and then were denied it. I think that rejection of a people’s vote was the seed for me that grew into my desire to leave.

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All very interesting about imperial units and roaming charges. But . . . 

There are now 11 days to no deal. (10 of those are nights)

I still don't see anyone in Toryland who has grasped what is needed for another extension. It's not automatic. As opposed to no deal, which is. 

Or was this no deal thing all a game of bluff and double bluff from the beginning?  'Embrace no deal' is the headline on the print edition of today's Telegraph. Can't help but be suspicious that all this is about the City avoiding regulation. Who else could possibly benefit? 

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2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I don’t think there was a vote by the common man but both Scottish and English Parliments voted for it, and then merged the parliments as the act of union. Joining Britain (England and Wales) with Scotland.

At this point we became the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Ireland). And the nation state was transformed into the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

Yes I suppose the UK is a superstate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1800

"parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland (previously in personal union) to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"

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12 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

The government publicly committed to the plan to turn the European Community into the European Union in 1972.

And they've spent almost 3 years publicly committing to leaving. Which is going really well.

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15 minutes ago, White Craw said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1800

"parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland (previously in personal union) to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"

Thanks for that - but an explanation for posting it might help with context...

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20 minutes ago, copydude said:

All very interesting about imperial units and roaming charges. But . . . 

There are now 11 days to no deal. (10 of those are nights)

I still don't see anyone in Toryland who has grasped what is needed for another extension. It's not automatic. As opposed to no deal, which is. 

Or was this no deal thing all a game of bluff and double bluff from the beginning?  'Embrace no deal' is the headline on the print edition of today's Telegraph. Can't help but be suspicious that all this is about the City avoiding regulation. Who else could possibly benefit? 

I tend to ignore the Torygraph.

Haven’t a scoobydoo What will come happen. I think the thing is to see what happens on Monday with more indicative votes.

I’m puzzled why the solution most popular is a Customs Union.

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1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

I tend to ignore the Torygraph.

Haven’t a scoobydoo What will come happen. I think the thing is to see what happens on Monday with more indicative votes.

I’m puzzled why the solution most popular is a Customs Union.

How they can even consider adopting an alternative exit plan on the spur of the moment, without any negotiation with the EU,. is beyond me. I don't think the EU would allow it. 

Realistically, I think we're looking at a long extension to A50, or if May drags it out to the bitter end, revocation of A50 at the 11th hour as the only alternative to a no deal Brexit.

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

How they can even consider adopting an alternative exit plan on the spur of the moment, without any negotiation with the EU,. is beyond me. I don't think the EU would allow it. I guess it’s being seen to be doing something

Realistically, I think we're looking at a long extension to A50, or if May drags it out to the bitter end, revocation of A50 at the 11th hour as the only alternative to a no deal Brexit.

Any which way - May is out - god help us if we get Gove or Boris.

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18 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 

I’m puzzled why the solution most popular is a Customs Union.

It isn't popular with the Tories. Neither is the 2nd most popular 'peoples vote'. In fact none of the indicative votes would ever be adopted as Gov policy in a zillion years.

May is talking about bringing back an MV for a fourth time next week. They are running the clock down to no deal. Why else choose this course of action?

 

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17 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Any which way - May is out - god help us if we get Gove or Boris.

You regularly regurgitate arguments these two and other Brexiteers make. Taste of own medicine.

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2 hours ago, Arpeggio said:

OK. This is from 2001. Might not be active today, but might be an interesting sign of the potential nature of the EU.

"THE European Court of Justice ruled yesterday that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1325398/Euro-court-outlaws-criticism-of-EU.html

He got a bit excited....

"However, it dropped an argument put forward three months ago by the advocate-general, Damaso Ruiz-Jarabo Colomer, which implied that Mr Connolly's (his view) criticism of the EU was akin to extreme blasphemy, and therefore not protected speech."

I suppose if that were the case and, say, the EU had a book out on Amazon. Anything less then a 5 star review could land you in prison.

That’s ridiculous reporting of what was an employment dispute and nothing to do with suppression of criticism.  Typical of the nonsense the British press has churned out over the years.

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11 hours ago, Traktion said:

If you are serious about no borders, then you need to remove the reason to need them - the state's taxing and spending. Just making a bigger state, does not fundamentally address this.

The state's taxing is because people have agreed that they don't want to live in a society that is completely reliant on the free market for every aspect. If you want to convince everyone they don't need to take care of the less able and poor, start a political party. You won't get far. Because society is a far nicer place when we all pool money to make sure other humans have a chance at a decent life.

But, I guess, all you need to do is play on the narrative that taxation is theft, throw in the some weird anti EU analogies, and hey presto, you've got another arrow in the brexit campaign.

That's why brexit was probably inevitable. Too many vested interests, with enough time and exposure. Countering the propaganda is a full time job, but the liars only need to get lucky once and it's all over.

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Why are people worried about roaming charges after Brexit? On Three mobile the same tariff (Three at Home) applies to over 70 countries, many outside of the EU. If they can arrange a deal across multiple carriers, countries, then there's no reason why other providers can't do exactly the same.

http://www.three.co.uk/go-roam

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1 hour ago, maffo in oxford said:

Why are people worried about roaming charges after Brexit? On Three mobile the same tariff (Three at Home) applies to over 70 countries, many outside of the EU. If they can arrange a deal across multiple carriers, countries, then there's no reason why other providers can't do exactly the same.

http://www.three.co.uk/go-roam

Pay as you go?......not everyone has smart or is smart enough to pay dd every month don't use it you lose it....money down the drain.....;)

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1 hour ago, Dave Beans said:

An interesting read on the strategies & sequencing used for the EU - UK talks...

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

A50 defined the process..written by one of our very own no less. This reads like a sensationalised article where we are the victim.

Yes we could have told the EU what we wanted early on, as a relationship.... but we were unprepared and the ref did not result in specific course of action. Remember the vote leave campaign deliberatly did not specify what type of brexit was on offer lest it lose suport!!! All in all its more about out ability or lack of than about EU cunning. Did it tell us anything we did not know? Not really, but interesting how you can make it appeal to the Europhobes. 

I guess we should thank our government for this mess and all who sail in her. Also special thanks to those who wrote a blank check allowing it to happen.

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britain-eu-brexit-46d6c61a3dae596e5b1773

10 hours ago, Sledgehead said:

Meanwhile in America, Africa, China, Japan etc, ie non-EU countries, calls are still £1 per minute, because they don't have technological progress anywhere but europe - well, that's a remainer view anyhow.

Why go backwards when already have been given the freedom to expand and move forwards.....if we don't like it can change it.......change it at the right time, in the right way, for the right reasons, reasons that are valid and require addressing, but totally irrelevant to the question at hand.....;)

Edit to say, re the picture, I don't know what the plan was or even if we did the homework..but speaks volumes.

 

Edited by winkie

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1 hour ago, winkie said:

britain-eu-brexit-46d6c61a3dae596e5b1773

Why go backwards when already have been given the freedom to expand and move forwards.....if we don't like it can change it.......change it at the right time, in the right way, for the right reasons, reasons that are valid and require addressing, but totally irrelevant to the question at hand.....;)

Edit to say, re the picture, I don't know what the plan was or even if we did the homework..but speaks volumes.

 

Knowing what we know now about the talks from this image it’s clear that the U.K. turned up without doing any homework beyond the rhetoric of ‘they need us more than we need them’. 

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4 hours ago, maffo in oxford said:

Why are people worried about roaming charges after Brexit? On Three mobile the same tariff (Three at Home) applies to over 70 countries, many outside of the EU. If they can arrange a deal across multiple carriers, countries, then there's no reason why other providers can't do exactly the same.

http://www.three.co.uk/go-roam

Just like brexiters promised that no deal is not an option during campaign and now we are week away from hardest possible Brexit?

People should be worried at constant lies from brexiters as reality materialises in worst possible direction

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10 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

Your argument is that England not only ceased to be a nation state, but also ceased to be a nation.  If the English parliament at the time could legitimately do that, why do you have a problem with our membership of the EU on the same basis?

Without wishing to state the obvious we had a different form of governance at that time that we have now so comparing what went on 300 years ago is hardly relevant today. Parliament/the monarchy could do these things because they had the power and the legitimacy.

Today we have a system called representative democracy which does call for at least some involvement of the "common people". The EU does not really fulfil at least some of the criteria for what we call democrcy.

The more interesting question with the EU is not whether it is democratic but whether it can be democratic; in other words does its nature preclude it from being democratic in a recognisable way.

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7 minutes ago, crouch said:

Without wishing to state the obvious we had a different form of governance at that time that we have now so comparing what went on 300 years ago is hardly relevant today. Parliament/the monarchy could do these things because they had the power and the legitimacy.

Today we have a system called representative democracy which does call for at least some involvement of the "common people". The EU does not really fulfil at least some of the criteria for what we call democrcy.

The more interesting question with the EU is not whether it is democratic but whether it can be democratic; in other words does its nature preclude it from being democratic in a recognisable way.

Lol someone from UK calling EU undemocratic!  What EXACTLY is undemocratic about EU?

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7 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

That’s ridiculous reporting of what was an employment dispute and nothing to do with suppression of criticism.  Typical of the nonsense the British press has churned out over the years.

How about this:

http://civic-forum.eu/civic-space/european-ombudsman-severly-criticises-the-lack-of-transparency-within-the-council

A very interesting article but not in the way it seems.

The Council is not transparent but it does contain members who are usually elected in their country so it is a direct link with the "people". However if you are a UK government minister and you are in favour of a policy proposal but know that in the UK it would not be popular you can vote for it in the Council but say to people at home: "I voted against but I was outvoted".

 

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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