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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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1 minute ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

Poor Diane. Such a victim.

Of her own incompetence.

 

Yeah, first black female MP. A member of the HoC since the mid eighties. Sooooo incompetent.

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3 hours ago, winkie said:

For the very wealthy they will have access to the world......leaving the EU will mean unless can afford to support yourself and the country you wish to live in your door will be firmly shut.....only access to those with a golden visa.......ūüėČ

Brexiters care about the little people. They care so much they want to reserve the right to move around the planet as a privilege to the elite (thankfully, I think I'm one of those). The little people are too small minded to want to move anyway, right?

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17 minutes ago, smash said:

Yeah, first black female MP. A member of the HoC since the mid eighties. Sooooo incompetent.

Suspect a bit of positive discrimination in her selection personally. Given her performances it's the only explanation I can think of.

 

 

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1 minute ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

Suspect a bit of positive discrimination in her selection personally. Given her performances it's the only explanation I can think of.

Sure.

 

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4 hours ago, winkie said:

For the very wealthy they will have access to the world......leaving the EU will mean unless can afford to support yourself and the country you wish to live in your door will be firmly shut.....only access to those with a golden visa.......ūüėČ

We constantly rage about being priced out by overseas buyers in this country yet dream of inflicting the same fate on others in less affluent parts of the EU. Oh the irony...

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1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I wonder if Corbyn's offer is made with the intention of saving the country from a disastrous no deal exit or to maximise the chances of the Tory party imploding.  

Re EE Immigration the peak is over and it is all downhill from here. Non EU immigration is not made up of students as these more or less net off from year to year. 

If you look at the graph below you can see that falls in EU immigration are immediately offset by increases in non EU immigration. 

 

statistics-net-migration-statistics-.svg

It achieves two immediate objectives of uniting Labour whilst concurrently throwing the Tories into further, potentially fatal, disarray. It also increases the likelihood of a GE later in the year which would suit Jezza if his version of Brexit goes to plan. 

As for immigration figures, I think students typically account for roughly 50% of non EU migrants and I know, through my own unsuccessful attempts at recruiting highly skilled overseas staff in the past 5 years, that numbers of non students have been significantly restricted through recent caps on work permits etc. There are also well recognised flaws with the ONS methodology which have resulted in an underestimation of EU and overestimation non EU migration over many years.

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Splendid day in Brussels....

Quote

Theresa May facing ministerial resignations as Brussels sends her away empty-handed

and American politicians threatening no US trade deal if the GFA agreement is jeopardised.  :lol:

Mind you Maybot did scold naughty pupil Tusk in front of the class, so there !

 

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The Brexit cliff edge is nearer than most people seem to have realised. As long as there is a possibility of a "no deal" exit and tariffs going up on the 30 of March, trade will start to drop off well before the 29th.

Companies will stop accepting orders, if they cannot be confident they can produce ship and deliver them before the 29th of March. The first I heard of this issue was on a work Vlog, which contained snippets of Greg Clark giving evidence at the select committee earlier this week, tellingly it was his PS that raised it.  

It the Guardian is correct about the vote being delayed, we will be hearing a lot more about this in the next few weeks.

Brexit deal may not be put to MPs until late March, officials say

No-deal Brexit: UK exporters risk being locked out of world's harbours

 

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1 hour ago, thirdwave said:

It achieves two immediate objectives of uniting Labour whilst concurrently throwing the Tories into further, potentially fatal, disarray. It also increases the likelihood of a GE later in the year which would suit Jezza if his version of Brexit goes to plan. 

As for immigration figures, I think students typically account for roughly 50% of non EU migrants and I know, through my own unsuccessful attempts at recruiting highly skilled overseas staff in the past 5 years, that numbers of non students have been significantly restricted through recent caps on work permits etc. There are also well recognised flaws with the ONS methodology which have resulted in an underestimation of EU and overestimation non EU migration over many years.

Unless student numbers are increasing year on year they have little effect on the net migration numbers.  

Re the ONS stats, it is likely that they did miss EU citizens as we have no visa regime for them but with improved recording of landing/exit information, it is likely that this has fallen in recent years. In fact we are now more likely to be under recording migrants going home than arriving. 

When I worked at the HO it was calculated that filling a job vacancy with a non EU migrant rather than an EU migrant resulted in 40% higher migration over the long term, as on average they brought more dependents with them and were less likely to ever leave the UK.    

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13 hours ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

Religion takes the noblest feelings a human can have - a yearning towards something better than our material sublunary existence, a recognition that we are fatally flawed physical beings, that there is the possibility of something greater than ourselves - & turns into a means of subjugation. It's disgusting but always happens.

I remember reading a short story (actually I think it was part of The Brothers Karamazov) which described how the Church would be obliged to murder Jesus were he to appear on earth again.

I'm convinced Blair (& not by himself) was motivated by capitalism  Cheap labour for him & his mates dressed up as liberalism.

I keep coming back to my adiabatic/isothermal expansion analogy. Historically this country's been pretty good at accepting migration, but it has to be done at a rate where equilibrium is maintained. It's made much worse when the incoming gas (migrants) is at a much different temperature (culture) to the original. 

Done properly the resultant heterogeneous mix is beneficial. Done badly & you have a potential explosion on your hands ...

Hi

Thanks for bringing Dostoevsky into the HPC community. As you clearly know The Brothers Karamazov was his crowning achievement and regarded as one of the best books ever written. Dostoevsky passed away before he completed the novel (yes, its a novel not a collection of short stories) and many great intellectuals have studied the text for insights into the human condition, Sigmund Freud for example regarded it as his favourite book. It is a dense read though I must admit, worst than WTO trade rules texts.

As with all great works though it is subject to mis-interpretation and I am curious to know how you arrived at the "short story" idea that I have highlighted in your words above. I wish to clarify if you are an actual Dostoevsky scholar and not someone who just watched a youtube video by the self help guru Jordan Peterson. What other books by Dostoevsky have you read?

Thanks.

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8 hours ago, dugsbody said:

As a country that has always pushed forward liberal thinking we should continue to do so. That means that freedom of moment across Europe should continue to be supported.

Freedom of movement across "planet earth" is impractical and will result in a large right wing backlash. We don't wan't that so we should not push for that right now, but the ultimate goal should be a global planet rather than an insular small minder planet where populations are inclined to blame their neighbours and kill them.

Is that a straight enough answer for you? It irritates me that my fellow remains can't give a straight answer to this question.

What about you, are you insular and want human to be bordered in, or do you want to gradually move the world forward?

Thanks for rising to the challenge and answering.

I find it convenient that controlling immigration beyond borders is necessary beyond the EU but not within it. For the same issues of practicality and necessity (population density, strains on social cohesion) I would like full control over UK borders. That is not me being illiberal or right wing.

FoM across the globe sounds incredibly naive, and ripe for abuse. I can tell that you see the best in humanity, so respect for that. I also care, but see people as inherently selfish. Not necessarily malicious, but still selfish. People care about issues but not enough to do something about them themselves.

If I could live anywhere on planet earth I’d probably pick Oahu. I doubt many would choose Mogadishu. And that’s the problem. FOM is incompatible with an imperfect and self centred world.

Your vision of the future reminds me of Star Trek.

My vision is more Fifth Element. Grimey, Narcisistic, Overpopulated...

Edited by GrizzlyDave

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8 hours ago, rollover said:

How would you call Corbyn's and May's Brexit?

I'm thinking about something like Co-M-Brino.

Schadenfreude

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7 hours ago, thirdwave said:

We constantly rage about being priced out by overseas buyers in this country yet dream of inflicting the same fate on others in less affluent parts of the EU. Oh the irony...

Yes, we should box people into the area 50 miles around their birth place. We wouldn't want them to move elsewhere and price someone out. Also, when they move it is terrible for the area they left. They should stay put and use their skills to enrich their local area instead.

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2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Thanks for rising to the challenge and answering.

I find it convenient that controlling immigration beyond borders is necessary beyond the EU but not within it. For the same issues of practicality and necessity (population density, strains on social cohesion) I would like full control over UK borders. That is not me being illiberal or right wing.

FoM across the globe sounds incredibly naive, and ripe for abuse. I can tell that you see the best in humanity, so respect for that. I also care, but see people as inherently selfish. Not necessarily malicious, but still selfish. People care about issues but not enough to do something about them themselves.

If I could live anywhere on planet earth I’d probably pick Oahu. I doubt many would choose Mogadishu. And that’s the problem. FOM is incompatible with an imperfect and self centred world.

Your vision of the future reminds me of Star Trek.

My vision is more Fifth Element. Grimey, Narcisistic, Overpopulated...

I think we will end up like the Expanse. Moving to other worlds will offer the hope of a new start for the masses, only for it to be reigned in by some asshat with a god complex. 

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3 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

I think we will end up like the Expanse. Moving to other worlds will offer the hope of a new start for the masses, only for it to be reigned in by some asshat with a god complex. 

Not come across that one, but this one is good.

918zXXTsajL._SY445_.jpg

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report

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2 hours ago, smash said:

Hi

Thanks for bringing Dostoevsky into the HPC community. As you clearly know The Brothers Karamazov was his crowning achievement and regarded as one of the best books ever written. Dostoevsky passed away before he completed the novel (yes, its a novel not a collection of short stories) and many great intellectuals have studied the text for insights into the human condition, Sigmund Freud for example regarded it as his favourite book. It is a dense read though I must admit, worst than WTO trade rules texts.

As with all great works though it is subject to mis-interpretation and I am curious to know how you arrived at the "short story" idea that I have highlighted in your words above. I wish to clarify if you are an actual Dostoevsky scholar and not someone who just watched a youtube video by the self help guru Jordan Peterson. What other books by Dostoevsky have you read?

Thanks.

Many thanks

I am aware The Brothers Karamazov is a novel. I was recollecting as I wrote, & the chapter in question is (as I remember it) almost a standalone story told by one of the characters - I can't remember which one. It's about 30 years since I read the book, so please forgive me if my memories are a bit vague. In fact I can't remember much about the book - except that it was bloody good.

I've read The Idiot, Crime & Punishment, Notes from Underground & The Double. I am no scholar, but I do read a fair bit. I have never seen Dostoevsky on youtube.

The story (chapter) has stuck with me ever since I read the book. It was beautifully written & deeply affecting, I imagine that's why I've remembered it for so long. Dostoevsky was undoubtedly one of the greatest authors I've ever read.

 

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3 hours ago, smash said:

Hi

Thanks for bringing DostoevskyÔĽŅ into the HPC community. As you clearly know The Brothers Karamazov was his crowning achievement and regarded as one of the best books ever written.¬†Dostoevsky passed away before he completed the novel (yes, its a novel not a collection of short stories) and many great intellectuals have studied the text for insights into the human condition, Sigmund Freud for example regarded it as his favourite book. It is a dense read though I must admit, worst than WTO trade rules texts.

As with all great works though it is subject to mis-interpretation and I am curious to know how you arrived at the "short story" idea that I have highlighted in your words above. I wish to clarify if you are an actual Dostoevsky scholar and not someone who just watched a youtube video by the self help guru Jordan Peterson. What other books by Dostoevsky have you read?

Thanks.

The Idiot sums up leave voters where the prince makes everyone’s life worse and achieves nothing. 

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10 hours ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

Suspect a bit of positive discrimination in her selection personally. Given her performances it's the only explanation I can think of.

You may notice a difference between her performances in the 80s and her performances now that is connected with the passage of time.

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3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

You may notice a difference between her performances in the 80s and her performances now that is connected with the passage of time.

I used to quite like her when she was on This Week (though she came out with some doozies even then). Since her ascent in the Labour party she's definitely got worse though.

 

 

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3260.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=forma

Henry VIII getting the empty hand from JC Junker. Is it stage-managed? Either way, it's the Maybot deal delayed to the 11th hour. Pretty high stakes game from Maybot I've got to say. :wacko:

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3 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Thanks for rising to the challenge and answering.

I find it convenient that controlling immigration beyond borders is necessary beyond the EU but not within it. For the same issues of practicality and necessity (population density, strains on social cohesion) I would like full control over UK borders. That is not me being illiberal or right wing.

FoM across the globe sounds incredibly naive, and ripe for abuse. I can tell that you see the best in humanity, so respect for that. I also care, but see people as inherently selfish. Not necessarily malicious, but still selfish. People care about issues but not enough to do something about them themselves.

If I could live anywhere on planet earth I’d probably pick Oahu. I doubt many would choose Mogadishu. And that’s the problem. FOM is incompatible with an imperfect and self centred world.

Your vision of the future reminds me of Star Trek.

My vision is more Fifth Element. Grimey, Narcisistic, Overpopulated...

Following your logic we should end FoM within the UK. Those selfish people from other parts of Britain, with their strange accents, coming to my overpopulated London taking our jobs and homes.  

The FoM is not a problem but wealth discrepancies across the globe. FoM helps to level living conditions on our planet It definitely helped in the EU. I think your view of the world is very dark, gloomy as you try to projects your inner fears and vulnerabilities on others. I am personally happy for people to move freely around the world. It is better to spend our efforts to fight inequalities in this world than close ourselves in small cells trying to shield us from the big world out there. 

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1 hour ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

I've read The Idiot, Crime & Punishment, Notes from Underground & The Double. I am no scholar, but I do read a fair bit. I have never seen Dostoevsky on youtube.

The story (chapter) has stuck with me ever since I read the book. It was beautifully written & deeply affecting, I imagine that's why I've remembered it for so long. Dostoevsky was undoubtedly one of the greatest authors I've ever read.

Then, why are you supporting the no deal Brexit ideology?

 

Quote

 

Why disaster capitalists are praying for a no-deal Brexit

Guardian

 

 

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10 hours ago, dugsbody said:

As a country that has always pushed forward liberal thinking we should continue to do so. That means that freedom of moment across Europe should continue to be supported.

Freedom of movement across "planet earth" is impractical and will result in a large right wing backlash.

Freedom of movement across Europe was impractical and produced a large backlash from people already living in a country that would be better off with fewer people but which instead got even more. Freedom of movement between roughly equivalent countries so there's no real net pressure of movement in any one direction should be supported no matter where they are, Europe or elsewhere.

We shouldn't push forward liberal thinking for the sake of it. Any new idea needs to be considered on its own merits. Some things are good up to a point then start moving in the other direction. Others have a mixture of good and bad so you need to pick and choose, and put up with the fact that that choice is going to be subjective to a large degree. It's straightforward to say "this principle is right therefore we should keep pushing it" and that anyone who does pick and choose is being inconsistent, but that's too simple for the complexities of the real world.

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  • 354 The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


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      • Leave with no deal



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