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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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1 hour ago, aheadofthecurve said:

Perhaps you could extol the benefits of your wondrous freedom of movement?

We have freedom of movement within four nations of the UK.

If there is no benefit to freedom of movement, why do we have that? Presumably you also want to end that, since there is no benefit to humans moving freely between areas.

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54 minutes ago, yelims said:

You are dodging my question asking why are the Tories allowing uncontrolled immigration from outside the EU, they claimed to lower immigration to 100,000 yet that figure came from China and India alone

America was build on immigrants, so is Australia, all doing rather well, Ireland next door has even less resources than UK and we had double the immigrants from EU as percentage of population yet none of the nonsense you wrote is an issue here, it is only an issue in UK because right wing parties and media have used it as a wedge issue, the facts dont support this false narrative. 

 

  • overcrowded schools
    • build more schools, brand new one down the road from me, that 500 million a week the UK is already loosing since brexit vote could have built a lot of schools
  • high hospital waiting list times,
    • problem everywhere in western world, you could go the american model and cut out waiting for those who can pay
  • sky-rocketing housing prices,
    • problem everywhere in world thats not having a war, build more homes
  • long waits for public housing
    • see above
  • and an over-saturation of supply at the lower end of the job market.
    • educate people

 

What are the Tories doing to help education, healtcare or housing? They are spending all the government energy on Brexit nonsense of years now, and for years more to come as hundreds of deals have to be negotiated and they can not even get one agreed on with their closest/friendliest neighbours

The 100k figure consists mainly of students who pay circa 30k per year in fees besides contributing to the economy through spending without access to healthcare or benefits.

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Just now, dugsbody said:

We have freedom of movement within four nations of the UK.

If there is no benefit to freedom of movement, why do we have that? Presumably you also want to end that, since there is no benefit to humans moving freely between areas.

There's a lot of benefit to moving if the movement is reasonably balanced. Large movements in one direction towards an already developed area pile on the pressure on to that place and generally make it more unpleasant to be. Anyone who believes that the continual population growth Ponzi scheme is something desirable is nuts.

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Just now, dugsbody said:

The UK will never have complete sovereignty in a global work. Joining the EU is a voluntary pooling of sovereignty in matters that the member states agree on. I don't have a problem with that, since we do the same thing in the four nations of the UK. But many Brits have retained a Europhobia and don't like the idea of pooling sovereignty in the same way with European nations.

To me the key difference is that within the EU there is a plethora of vastly different cultures and attempting to provide the blanket one-size-fits-all solution that the EU proposes will not work. In fact it's clear most of the EU 'solutions' for things are really just things that Germany would want to see happen. I'm a big fan of keeping politics as local as possible because it then forces politics to be something that benefits that local area. This is one of the problems our current political system has in the UK; London essentially gets all the 'love' while the north of England really is not represented by Westminster politics. The EU does the same thing but on a more gigantic and oppressive scale.

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5 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

There's a lot of benefit to moving if the movement is reasonably balanced. Large movements in one direction towards an already developed area pile on the pressure on to that place and generally make it more unpleasant to be.

So we should restrict people moving from provincial towns to London?

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4 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

We have freedom of movement within four nations of the UK.

If there is no benefit to freedom of movement, why do we have that? Presumably you also want to end that, since there is no benefit to humans moving freely between areas.

Because it is not really the same thing. The population of the UK remains static if it is just people moving within the UK. You can see it on a smaller scale though - look how many people cram in to London or close to London and abandon living elsewhere in the UK. Uncontrolled immigration from outside the UK synthetically increases the population and does so at a rate that we cannot keep up with it. It's surprising you aren't able to recognise the difference.

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3 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

In fact it's clear most of the EU 'solutions' for things are really just things that Germany would want to see happen.

Oh wait a minute...

You're another re-registered poster. The same one that went off on a xenophobic anti-German rant the last time?

What is it with you guys?

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5 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

To me the key difference is that within the EU there is a plethora of vastly different cultures and attempting to provide the blanket one-size-fits-all solution that the EU proposes will not work. In fact it's clear most of the EU 'solutions' for things are really just things that Germany would want to see happen. I'm a big fan of keeping politics as local as possible because it then forces politics to be something that benefits that local area. This is one of the problems our current political system has in the UK; London essentially gets all the 'love' while the north of England really is not represented by Westminster politics. The EU does the same thing but on a more gigantic and oppressive scale.

This is a common British misconception.  The UK is a case study in how not to design a multi-national union and is hypercentralised.  The EU is not like that at all, but many British people instinctively perceive the EU as a giant version of the UK, with Germany in the role of England.

Edited by thecrashingisles

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Just now, aheadofthecurve said:

Because it is not really the same thing. The population of the UK remains static if it is just people moving within the UK.

That's dumb.

Why don't you type "The population of the EU remains static and if is just people moving within the EU."?

EU freedom of movement would have stabilised as nations equalised. That's the point.

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Just now, dugsbody said:

Oh wait a minute...

You're another re-registered poster. The same one that went off on a xenophobic anti-German rant the last time?

What is it with you guys?

I think you're like the 3rd or 4th person to accuse me of that :D I've seen this accusation levelled at others too.

This is my first and only account.

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Just now, thecrashingisles said:

So we should restrict people moving from provincial towns to London?

Within a country it's hard to find an ethical justification for doing so (and please don't come up with some inane "what's the difference?" nonsense, even though even raising it for within a country clearly fails to grasp that) but it's certainly not helped either London or the rest of the country much. London's got too large a chunk of the jobs, everywhere else loses out, and all its services and housing have been put under immense pressure, which has rather messed up London.

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7 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

We have freedom of movement within four nations of the UK.

If there is no benefit to freedom of movement, why do we have that? Presumably you also want to end that, since there is no benefit to humans moving freely between areas.

We have had freedom of movement since 1973. Even today after 40 years there are more British citizens living in Australia than in the entire EU - and we stopped having FOM with the Aussies when we joined the EU!

66 million Brits - barely a million live in the EU and I gather only around 1,400 have moved to relocate to eastern Europe since 2004 (with millions coming the other way consuming housing, public services, healthcare and more - many of whom relying on tax credits and housing benefit if working so aren't 'net contributors'). Frankly when FOM is only one way and just increases overcrowding and adds to housing shortages - its not of much interest.

And I am tempted to respond if FOM is so great for you - what are you still doing in the UK. France, Spain, Italy and Greece with their 30 to 50% youth unemployment are already available to you. Times a ticking!

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3 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

That's dumb.

Why don't you type "The population of the EU remains static and if is just people moving within the EU."?

EU freedom of movement would have stabilised as nations equalised. That's the point.

They might equalise rather a lot faster if some countries weren't losing a lot of the people they'd needed to catch up. Freedom of movement in the EU worked before it expanded. Ideally I'd put the brakes on it until they do equalise then open it up again.

Edited by Riedquat

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1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said:

This is a common British misconception.  The UK is a case study in how not to design a multi-national union and is hypercentralised.  The EU is not like that at all, but many British people instinctively perceive the EU as a giant version of the UK, with Germany in the role of England.

Why is it a misconception? Why is the UK a cast study in how not to design a multinational union? Could you provide that peer-reviewed case study? :D  

Why do you assume you speak for the perceptions of 'many British people'. You can't just say things without backing them up ;)

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2 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said:

And I am tempted to respond if FOM is so great for you - what are you still doing in the UK. France, Spain, Italy and Greece with their 30 to 50% youth unemployment are already available to you. Times a ticking!

Not to worry sport, I've used FOM before to work on the continent and I'll be using it again in due course to vacate brexit Britain. One less remoaner for you to worry about. 

I suspect you'll soon be finding a new group to blame for stuff though.

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1 minute ago, MARTINX9 said:

We have had freedom of movement since 1973. Even today after 40 years there are more British citizens living in Australia than in the entire EU - and we stopped having FOM with the Aussies when we joined the EU!

That's wrong.  The Australian scheme to make it easier to immigrate from the UK went on after we joined, and included other European countries as well. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Pound_Poms

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3 minutes ago, aheadofthecurve said:

Why is it a misconception? Why is the UK a cast study in how not to design a multinational union? Could you provide that peer-reviewed case study? :D  

Why do you assume you speak for the perceptions of 'many British people'. You can't just say things without backing them up ;)

My evidence is your comment.  You think the EU is or will become like the UK with Germany in the role of England as the dominant member.

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1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

They might equalise rather a lot faster if some countries weren't losing a lot of the people they'd needed to catch up. Freedom of movement in the EU worked before it expanded. Ideally I'd put the brakes on it until they do equalise then open it up again.

Hey, some common ground. It was a mistake to open FOM to a large group of economically unequal countries in short succession. It should have been staged a lot more gradually. We wouldn't be brexiting now if that had happened. The EU is far from perfect and that was quite a large mistake imo.

But, I do believe you're very wrong about "losing people". I have worked with many immigrants over the years and lots return to their countries with wealth and experience after a period of time. These countries (exhibit Poland) are growing enormously. 

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Just now, thecrashingisles said:

My evidence is your comment.  You think the EU is or will become like the UK with Germany in the role of England as the dominant member.

That's probably a fair but simplified assessment of my opinion. I believe that because of Germany's established attempts to force its own policies upon the states of the EU. An example of that is Merkel's own personal project of importing millions of overseas immigrants (one she admitted herself was failing) and then attempting to force other EU states to accept a share of these immigrants. As you can see my opinion is borne out of personal experience.

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10 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Hey, some common ground. It was a mistake to open FOM to a large group of economically unequal countries in short succession. It should have been staged a lot more gradually. We wouldn't be brexiting now if that had happened. The EU is far from perfect and that was quite a large mistake imo.

Yes, have to agree with that, Brexit would've never been suggested (other than by the same Eurosceptics who have been ignored since the 70s). You seem surprised at common ground! :)

Quote

But, I do believe you're very wrong about "losing people". I have worked with many immigrants over the years and lots return to their countries with wealth and experience after a period of time. These countries (exhibit Poland) are growing enormously.  

The net direction is still heavily towards the UK, and even if it wasn't it must've set those places back a long way, delaying that catching up. Our immigration policy has been fundamentally parasitic.

Edited by Riedquat

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18 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Oh wait a minute...

You're another re-registered poster. The same one that went off on a xenophobic anti-German rant the last time?

What is it with you guys?

I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H

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2 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H

Who, dugsbody? Pretty sure I've been completely disagreeing with him on several things for quite a long time, not just Brexit.

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4 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

I spy with my little eye yet another Brexit forum ID beginning with Hairy, Opps I mean H

Incorrect. As I said, I've only one account and my posting history reflects this. HairyOb may have had sock puppets but not me, and it's odd that you think our styles are even similar. Perhaps all remoaners blend into one.

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  • 355 The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


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      • Leave with no deal



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