IMHAL Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: ‘Remain’ is just as divided. An independent electoral commission agreed the question and how the ref would work and it was very fair IMHO. Taxpayers £9m for a leaflet, and using HMG civil service to campaign for remain only. Outrageous. But we won ? Understandably you are clutching at straws. In a real democracy you would give the nation the choice between valid options......the electoral commission (bless their inept little hearts) royally screwed up on this one. In addition, it would have been the ideal opportunity to clarify what remain option to put forward along side a workable leave option. We have already dismissed further integration...so that rules that out....only a small faction want Gb to cease being a nation state. That leaves the status quo with pretty much all the remain vote. Which ever way you look at this ......the ploy of trying to divide the remain vote is doomed to fail in any real world test. The real world test for leave on the other hand.......is succeeding admirably in that respect It is obvious that remain would win.....and that is why a second ref is so feared by leavers. Edited November 14, 2018 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: But only around 25% of the country would agree with you. The Leave campaign deliberately didn't pin down what sort of Brexit they wanted, as they knew no one type of Brexit could obtain a majority. The problems we are having now go back to that decision. Be honest - the Leave campaign had no way of telling the British public what it "would" look like, because it required extensive negotiations and had numerous possible outcomes. In principal they could tell you what we would get, i.e. our economic and political freedom. Everything they suggested was a "potential" benefit and was no way set in stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 30 minutes ago, warpig said: Be honest - the Leave campaign had no way of telling the British public what it "would" look like, because it required extensive negotiations and had numerous possible outcomes. In principal they could tell you what we would get, i.e. our economic and political freedom. Everything they suggested was a "potential" benefit and was no way set in stone. Be honest - the remain campaign had now way of telling the British public what ‘remain’ would look like. Would it mean everything staying exactly the same, or us adopting the Euro, joining Schengen, or maybe even the EU army. Would it mean becoming a region within the United States of Europe? Remain is just as ambiguous and open ended. Be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: But you are not getting it back. This deal will have us tagging along behind the EU and following its rules and regulations without any vote on those rules and regulations for many years to come. That's a bit harsh. First, you haven't seen the deal yet. Second, we'll only get the CU if/when Brit politicians - all of them - fail to come up with a working trade arrangement that protects the open border in NI, so that's their screw up. Third, all states have to abide by some international rules and regs, even the US, this talk of vassal state is all a bit 17thC and idiotic. Fourth, lots of the same players that are now screeching about how awful the deal is have been calling for a CU that looks a lot like the backstop. Some were even saying we must stay in the SM not so long ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 43 minutes ago, warpig said: Be honest - the Leave campaign had no way of telling the British public what it "would" look like, because it required extensive negotiations and had numerous possible outcomes. In principal they could tell you what we would get, i.e. our economic and political freedom. Everything they suggested was a "potential" benefit and was no way set in stone. More like...guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Remain is just as ambiguous and open ended. Be honest. Aye. And all those questions - and more - will be left open and unknowable in the event of any 2nd ref, though 2nd reffers deny it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 minute ago, thehowler said: More like...guidelines. Like the Pirate Code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Aye...aye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 minute ago, thehowler said: Aye. And all those questions - and more - will be left open and unknowable in the event of any 2nd ref, though 2nd reffers deny it I know. If the Macron Merkel call for an EU army isn’t a wake up call - I don’t know what is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 (edited) German GDP 3rd quarter has shrunk by 0.2%. Ouch. EC spring forecast for German GDP 2018 was 2.3%, I think, now looks like it might be 1.5%...about the same as us. Mighty Germany. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-economy-gdp/german-economy-contracts-in-third-quarter-on-weak-foreign-trade-idUKKCN1NJ0PM?il=0 Edited November 14, 2018 by thehowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I am pretty sure that May's deal won't get voted through. It feels like an episode of the Twilight Zone, where humans have been taken over by an aliens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: I know. If the Macron Merkel call for an EU army isn’t a wake up call - I don’t know what is! That Merkel speech yesterday was a shocker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Might get a whoop for sterling this afternoon, if the cabinet pass the deal. Rebel MPs will be up against the markets too, if the deal gets moving. Pushing mid-morning now and no resignations...just the usual finger-waving spouters on the tv/radio. Talk that the deal will be published if the cabinet say yes, so could be online early evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 And Italy has stared down the EC demands to change its budget plans...won't budge, back to the EC...from BBC, ref only... The Commission's warning to Italy, the eurozone's third-biggest economy, is an unprecedented move with regard to an European Union member state. It will now decide whether to begin disciplinary measures against the Rome government. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46203605 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 8 hours ago, pig said: Kind of agree with parts of this. A bunch of spineless whining wretches have offered us a choice of capitulation to or running away from the EU. Time to pull down Churchill statues for Chamberlaine. Going to be interesting formulating an attractive begging bowl for the USA and China. Lots of people deride Chamberlain Pig. It's truly a tragedy that he made the wrong choice about Hitler. If one digs deeper than the appeasement, he did 100x more good for the people of this country than ANY of the politicians we've had for the last 50 years. He came from a time of service to others and selflessness, unlike today where those in Westminster's mantra is serve myself and feck everybody else. He set alight the concept of social housing (council houses) and healthcare for the poor (NHS), following the principles of his dad, Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 From the Daily Telegraph Europe Editor...the irony meter is off the scale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 58 minutes ago, thehowler said: That Merkel speech yesterday was a shocker. Let me ask you something if you don’t mind - are you a remainer turned leaver or are you still a remainer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 3 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Hear hear. The same undeniable fractures exist in the remain camp. 1) those who want the status quo, 2) those who want gradual further integration, 3) those who want a federal EU and the end of nation states. Anybody who supports Brexit and says they are in favour of nation states is very confused about what the UK is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpig Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Be honest - the remain campaign had now way of telling the British public what ‘remain’ would look like. Would it mean everything staying exactly the same, or us adopting the Euro, joining Schengen, or maybe even the EU army. Would it mean becoming a region within the United States of Europe? Remain is just as ambiguous and open ended. Be honest. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 just leave no deal walk away let them argue about it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 5 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Anybody who supports Brexit and says they are in favour of nation states is very confused about what the UK is. What is the UK then. Educate me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: What is the UK then. Educate me... A union of nations. Like the six nations rugby game. They are called the home 'nations' IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Let me ask you something if you don’t mind - are you a remainer turned leaver or are you still a remainer? I voted remain, just by a whisker. But I recognize the vote so guess that means I've turned leaver. All remainer democrats should have turned leaver, IMHO. I don't really understand the 2nd reffer/remainer argument, I see it as a kind of obsessive, indignant and rather self-important fallacy that risks greater harm to the UK. The two-year Art 50 process has done a lot to sustain it. In the long run - mid-century - I don't think we can resist being part of some European endeavour, but I think it has to be reimagined. Brexit is part of that reimagining. Genuine Europhiles will accept the outcome of the current negotiations and then work hard to forge the political will to rejoin. I think reform of our own political groups and democratic institutions and addressing the plight of many people living in these isles takes precedence over the trade deal with Europe, I'm hoping that will come as Brexit fever fades. People wanted a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 thehowler, I'd just like to say your posts are one of the few reasons I revisit this site (kudos to Dave Beans & GrizzlyDave also). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Will keep 'em coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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