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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.


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32 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

I think this is fake news dude. The origin of the quote is Leon Trotsky's statement about Dwight Macdonald. The actual quote is:

"Everyone has the right to be stupid on occasion, but Comrade Macdonald abuses the privilege."

And you tried soooo hard! :lol:

No way - Google was wrong :o

I'm shocked I tell you !

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I do.   https://twitter.com/housepricemania

1409 pages....you guys should have your own forum !!!

Oh OK. Shame that really, but hey it looks like @IMHAL helped us both out. Nice repost though, thanks ! Any thoughts ?  

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8 hours ago, poppie said:

This point is worth repeating. Brexit is the result of an out of control cat-fight in the Conservative party.

Why any non-tory wants to get involved in this squabble is beyond me. We even appear to have some bloke/blokette posting from his/her holiday in Thailand FFS. How depraved is that?

Brexit does appear to be 'out of control' period - in headless chicken mode, I would not necessarly say that is is because the cons are in control, although they did appease/pander to the crowd with their 'Brexit means Brexit', a 'Red White and Blue Brexit' and all that meaningless drivel aimed squarley at the baying hoards, the net effect being unrealistic expectations that will probably be undeliverable.

Perhaps Labour (if and when they get off the fence) can come out as the party that is capable of containing the damage. Will TM last?, will Labour get the chance?, will we get some (much needed) cross party cooperation in our hour of need? Who knows!

WRT holidaying in Thailand - there are some nice places to go to, great beaches and fantastic food - it makes for a good if expensive family holiday. There are also some unsavory places and unsavory characters that are best avoided, but which is part of the draw for some people.

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On 1/3/2018 at 3:47 PM, ccc said:

Many in the UK walk down their local street and think they have been teleported into Warsaw. 

Brexit was a chance to at least try and change that.

Interesting. Going downtown in Warsaw I often felt I had been teleported into Bracknell.

H&M, C&A, TkMaxx, Irish pubs, Starbucks . . . 

Or was it Poles that made people feel uncomfortable? 

Walking around my local suburb, I found it impossible to tell the difference between Polish girls or Ukrainian girls or British girls. What do people find upsetting about Poles and what makes them stand out? Do they carry bags of tap washers?

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3 minutes ago, copydude said:

Interesting. Going downtown in Warsaw I often felt I had been teleported into Bracknell.

H&M, C&A, TkMaxx, Irish pubs, Starbucks . . . 

Or was it Poles that made people feel uncomfortable? 

Walking around my local suburb, I found it impossible to tell the difference between Polish girls or Ukrainian girls or British girls. What do people find upsetting about Poles and what makes them stand out? Do they carry bags of tap washers?

It's the fact their local area has been completely changed within an incredibly short period of time.

People don't like walking around their home town they have lived in their entire lives and feeling like they're in another country.

As I've repeated on here numerous times - of all the people out there to understand this the Poles are near the top of the pile.

Wonderful irony. For all the gnashing of teeth around Brexit - and the constant chants of racist and Xenophobe - the British are Accrington Stanley compared to the Polish - Real Madrid. :lol:

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On 1/3/2018 at 7:29 PM, jonb2 said:

It's called ethnic cleansing.

The present day  Banderastan - Ukraine plus a giant swathe of the former Poland post Potsdam - was founded on ethnic cleansing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia 

Oh, come on, but that's ancient history, you might say. No, Ukrainian nationalists celebrate the massacres as if they were yesterday.

Every year, Ukrainian nationalists celebrate Bandera's birthday on January 2nd. This year, Jan 2 2017, saw a huge turnout. 

5a4ba226fc7e93da1a8b4567.jpg

What the MSM doesn't like to say is that a similar genocide in East of Ukraine is likely and almost succeeded. Already, the Donbas has been effectively under siege for as long as the Siege of Leningrad.

Why not off-topic? Because both ethnic cleansing and the collective punishment of civilians are crimes against humanity recognised by the Geneva convention. Yet in this, the EU aids, abets and funds nationalist Ukraine. Ukraine receives more funding in grants than any member state.

If there are compelling reasons for Brexit, I'd suggest this is one.

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49 minutes ago, ccc said:

People don't like walking around their home town they have lived in their entire lives and feeling like they're in another country.

As I've repeated on here numerous times - of all the people out there to understand this the Poles are near the top of the pile.

Well, it certainly appears that many people across Europe feel that their national identity is threatened by the EU.

The EU's Drang Nach Osten was certainly spearheaded by NATO and the multinats rolled over local business like tanks. In Poland you'll be unlikely to have a Polish employer unless your work in the market or a cake shop. All the major supermarkets are multinats: Auchan, Carrefour, LeClerc, Tesco, Aldi, Lidl . . . the most Polish seeming and sounding chain, Biedronka, is Portugese owned. Need telecoms? The market is dominated by Vodafone, T-Max, Canal + . . . Banks? Santander, Deutsche, Credit Agricole . . . so on.

Everything is foreign owned. I spent an amusing day researching E. Wedel, 'Polands Oldest Chocolatier, Est 1851'. The wonderful brochure presents a timeline of the company, from when Jan Wedel bought his chocolate machines from Paris and invented the legendary Birds Milk confections, to the present day shop and cafe in Warsaw hung with founder's portraits - a major tourist attraction.

The brochure conveniently fails to include about 25 years, when the company was nationalised post-war (without compensation) and the last remaining family members were fired in 1947. After the fall of socialism, the company was sold to Pepsico.

The current spat between the EU and the Visegrad 4 has much to do with 'taking back the country'. Hungary, in much the same boat as Poland, wanted to levy a higher tax on foreign supermarkets, a total no no with the EU. Surely even remainers can see that one -size fits all policies don't suit everyone. 

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17 minutes ago, copydude said:

Well, it certainly appears that many people across Europe feel that their national identity is threatened by the EU.

The EU's Drang Nach Osten was certainly spearheaded by NATO and the multinats rolled over local business like tanks. In Poland you'll be unlikely to have a Polish employer unless your work in the market or a cake shop. All the major supermarkets are multinats: Auchan, Carrefour, LeClerc, Tesco, Aldi, Lidl . . . the most Polish seeming and sounding chain, Biedronka, is Portugese owned. Need telecoms? The market is dominated by Vodafone, T-Max, Canal + . . . Banks? Santander, Deutsche, Credit Agricole . . . so on.

Everything is foreign owned. I spent an amusing day researching E. Wedel, 'Polands Oldest Chocolatier, Est 1851'. The wonderful brochure presents a timeline of the company, from when Jan Wedel bought his chocolate machines from Paris and invented the legendary Birds Milk confections, to the present day shop and cafe in Warsaw hung with founder's portraits - a major tourist attraction.

The brochure conveniently fails to include about 25 years, when the company was nationalised post-war (without compensation) and the last remaining family members were fired in 1947. After the fall of socialism, the company was sold to Pepsico.

The current spat between the EU and the Visegrad 4 has much to do with 'taking back the country'. Hungary, in much the same boat as Poland, wanted to levy a higher tax on foreign supermarkets, a total no no with the EU. Surely even remainers can see that one -size fits all policies don't suit everyone. 

The Visegrad presidents are far from fully popular with their 'subjects' - Orban has taken the shilling from Putin. Zeman and his finance minister are corrupt and hated by many Czechs. You know more than I on the former Soviet block, but I am sure you agree that Putin does not have Europe's cohesiveness in his top 3 interest list.

People think it's a binary situation for many of us. Do we want corrupt and hopeless incompetent nation governments or the natural equilibrium admin of a very flawed EU. The third hovering slime-ball are the corporations, by far the most damaging of the 3 choices. As you point out, their avarice knows no bounds. Local government is more susceptible to sweetheart deals with these maggots than the EU which has the natural order of chaos of the 27 to deal with.

My stance is that the corporations are the new mafia - helped by politicos and right wing media. I like the freedom, inclusiveness and cooperation of the non-political parts of the EU. Plus the fact they don't make it easy for the US companies/banks to dump their manure on us and rip off the man in the street - taking much, giving little.

So, although Hobson's choice, my view is that the EU is our best worse situation. Leavers have many points, immigration being a legitimate complaint as they are obviously upset by it and ignored. But they argue, like you do, on what is wrong with the EU - rather than the effect of Brexit on the UK. There is no vision for post-Brexit apart from fantasy. It is this that makes Remainers very pissed off IMO.

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10 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

The Visegrad presidents are far from fully popular with their 'subjects' - Orban has taken the shilling from Putin. Zeman and his finance minister are corrupt and hated by many Czechs. You know more than I on the former Soviet block, but I am sure you agree that Putin does not have Europe's cohesiveness in his top 3 interest list.

People think it's a binary situation for many of us. Do we want corrupt and hopeless incompetent nation governments or the natural equilibrium admin of a very flawed EU. The third hovering slime-ball are the corporations, by far the most damaging of the 3 choices. As you point out, their avarice knows no bounds. Local government is more susceptible to sweetheart deals with these maggots than the EU which has the natural order of chaos of the 27 to deal with.

My stance is that the corporations are the new mafia - helped by politicos and right wing media. I like the freedom, inclusiveness and cooperation of the non-political parts of the EU. Plus the fact they don't make it easy for the US companies/banks to dump their manure on us and rip off the man in the street - taking much, giving little.

So, although Hobson's choice, my view is that the EU is our best worse situation. Leavers have many points, immigration being a legitimate complaint as they are obviously upset by it and ignored. But they argue, like you do, on what is wrong with the EU - rather than the effect of Brexit on the UK. There is no vision for post-Brexit apart from fantasy. It is this that makes Remainers very pissed off IMO.

Very well put. Last para is a good summary of how I felel about the situation.

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18 hours ago, IMHAL said:

Regarding the cost and who bears it. I would have thought that those that are well placed now will be well placed to profit from whatever situation arises, Brexit or not. Those that will bear the brunt of the cost will be those who have the least financial buffer. As regard if there will be a cost at all, well, we will see, but things don't look good and nothing has happened to change my mind about that.

Regarding your sequence of drivers: more automation, wealth being corralled into fewer hands, wages being eroded, people getting poorer. Leading to disenchantment and the need to wrest back control. (see below)

I agree in the round. Two things.

1) I would add that debt was used in the extreeme pre 2008 to extend and pretend (still is), in an effort to kick the can down the road. It made the real problems pre-2008 into latent problems and then into a very real bugger of a problem post the 2008 financial crash. We are still living in the aftermath of this and it is still not resolved.

2) In my view,  wresting control is a red herring. We still live in a connected world, We still need to trade and attract investement. If anything, things may get worse because we may be more desparate to attract investment from big business or to promote trade. The only advantaage that I see is that now there is no one to blame other than ourselves - politicians of both colours in the past have been happy to blame Brussels and use them as scapegoat, this has been goiing on for years.

I cannot leave this without saying someting about the 'immigration problem'. I don't have to labour the point. I think it is a symptom of all of the above mixed in with various policy mistakes of our own making - yet it takes centre stage - which in my view is a mistake, curing symptoms is rarely effective.

In short, I do not see any of the drivers highlighted changing post Brexit. At least I cannot see how they will change, maybe you can?

BTW: This is not a challenge, I have no answers to the above, all I am reasonably certain of is that Brexit is not it. We are busy making the mistake of looking under the lampost for keys we lost elsewhere.

Once again, I agree. Our government actually does not have absolute power over our fate - no government does. Events, dear boy, events; they can derail even the strongest of human powers. " No man is an island" also springs to mind.

It's a question to what degree you feel responsible for your fate. A surprisingly large number of people would prefer a dictatorship (benign - to them - obviously) or even the dear old Queen to be running the show. But me, I want to have some say in who represents me; they're distant enough even without the EU, with the  EU as well ...    This matters to me. I can cope with being outvoted by the rest of the UK, but not being at the mercy of some twerp in Brussels. 

I'll take my chances as part of the UK. It's a big a mess as I can cope with.

 

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1 hour ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

Once again, I agree. Our government actually does not have absolute power over our fate - no government does. Events, dear boy, events; they can derail even the strongest of human powers. " No man is an island" also springs to mind.

It's a question to what degree you feel responsible for your fate. A surprisingly large number of people would prefer a dictatorship (benign - to them - obviously) or even the dear old Queen to be running the show. But me, I want to have some say in who represents me; they're distant enough even without the EU, with the  EU as well ...    This matters to me. I can cope with being outvoted by the rest of the UK, but not being at the mercy of some twerp in Brussels. 

I'll take my chances as part of the UK. It's a big a mess as I can cope with.

 

This is the bit that separates us.

I would be interested to hear from you about any concrete examples of what you feel has been decided by Brussels (the biggies) with out our say so, and how do you think it may be different to our MP's making decision for us that have gone against popular opinion and/or have not been included in a manifesto. I think you know that I am not talking about straight bananas here.

The domestic biggies that I can think of are Iraq, Baliing out the banks, Allowing acesion to the EE states before others in the EU.... probably a lots more if I care to rummage......

I guess the EU mandate for FoM would be something - but this was never a problem until we unilaterally allowed ascecion prematurely - so it was our sovereign decision really.

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5 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I would be interested to hear from you about any concrete examples of what you feel has been decided by Brussels (the biggies) with out our say so

Without anyone's say so. The European Parliament doesn't bring legislation, it only rubber stamps the executive. It's the most impotent parliament ever convened.

There's the reverse engineering of the iron curtain to start with.

Did the Greeks have any say so in the fate of their country, or the Cypriots in the fate of their banks and depositors? These are decisions made by the Eurogroup, barely a legal entity. So nebulous, it was impossible to challenge their decisions in the court.

I agree with Octopus. As members we are responsible for courses of action we probably wouldn't take in a million years.

Consider Catalonia. I haven't noticed Britain throwing SNP guys in jail or forcing Nicola Sturgeon into exile. Do we have elections with candidates in prison? Yet Spain's actions are endorsed by Juncker. 'Nationalism is a poison' he declares.

And why not bring up straight bananas, or the sixty species of tomatoes that can't be sold owing to them looking a bit nobbly, or the fact that we were subsidising Spanish bullfighting of all things?

Well done, Octopus, for wanting to say 'not in my name' every now and then. 

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25 minutes ago, copydude said:

Without anyone's say so. The European Parliament doesn't bring legislation, it only rubber stamps the executive. It's the most impotent parliament ever convened.

There's the reverse engineering of the iron curtain to start with.

Did the Greeks have any say so in the fate of their country, or the Cypriots in the fate of their banks and depositors? These are decisions made by the Eurogroup, barely a legal entity. So nebulous, it was impossible to challenge their decisions in the court.

I agree with Octopus. As members we are responsible for courses of action we probably wouldn't take in a million years.

Consider Catalonia. I haven't noticed Britain throwing SNP guys in jail or forcing Nicola Sturgeon into exile. Do we have elections with candidates in prison? Yet Spain's actions are endorsed by Juncker. 'Nationalism is a poison' he declares.

And why not bring up straight bananas, or the sixty species of tomatoes that can't be sold owing to them looking a bit nobbly, or the fact that we were subsidising Spanish bullfighting of all things?

Well done, Octopus, for wanting to say 'not in my name' every now and then. 

Trying to smear the EU with Catalonia lol

Now that’s what I call the poison of nationalism.

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1 minute ago, pig said:

Trying to smear the EU with Catalonia lol

Now that’s what I call the poison of nationalism.

The above appears to be a cretinous, pointless reply to an useful, considered response - to an interesting question.

Quote

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker on Thursday called on Europe to stand up against separatism at a time when the Catalan independence push has deeply divided Spain.

The standoff between Madrid and supporters of Catalan independence, triggered by a banned Oct 1 referendum splitting with Spain, has stirred separatist feelings far beyond Spanish borders.

“Nationalisms are a poison that prevent Europe from working together”, said Juncker in a speech at a university Spanish city of Salamanca, where he received an award.

 

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37 minutes ago, copydude said:

Consider Catalonia

subsidising Spanish bullfighting of all things?

 

this is the kind of disingenuous misinformation (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not an outright liar) that shows yet again the brexit campaign was driven by liars like St Nigel of Farage

As for beating on the eu for the catalonia issue - if the eu keeping it's nose out of a country's domestic affairs doesn't demonstrate it's respecting of a member state's sovereignity I don't know what else to say. Never mind the expansionist agenda of 'poor little' catalonia

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10 minutes ago, highYield said:

The above appears to be a cretinous, pointless reply to an useful, considered response - to an interesting question.

 

Holy Crap. I’m sick to the back teeth with Nationalism too - whether it be old women covered in bloody police brutality, fox fighting, bull hunting murdered politicians, swivel-eyed Daily Mail loons, Putinbots, split and flailing countries or certifiable POTUS. I’d genuinely hate the idea of being in agreement with Juncker !

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2 minutes ago, pig said:

I’d genuinely hate the idea of being in agreement with Juncker !

He can't agree with himself.

Before the Catalonia referendum he said: "I would respect a Catalan Yes vote"

https://www.politico.eu/article/jean-claude-juncker-catalonia-headscarf-i-would-respect-a-catalan-yes-vote/

After it he said: "Nationalisms are a poison"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/878093/Catalonia-independence-Spain-Barcelona-Jean-Claude-Juncker-EU-Puigdemont

 

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20 minutes ago, pig said:

Holy Crap. I’m sick to the back teeth with Nationalism too - whether it be old women covered in bloody police brutality, fox fighting, bull hunting murdered politicians, swivel-eyed Daily Mail loons, Putinbots, split and flailing countries or certifiable POTUS. I’d genuinely hate the idea of being in agreement with Juncker !

copydude clearly has a wealth of relevant knowledge, and his discussion with IMHAL is both interesting and enlightening. Please don't try and wreck it.

edit: unless the old woman covered in bloody police brutality from fox fighting bull hunting murdered politicians is anything other than gibberish?

fox_fighting.jpg

Edited by Guest
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5 minutes ago, highYield said:

copydude clearly has a wealth of relevant knowledge, and his discussion with IMHAL is both interesting and enlightening. Please don't try and wreck it.

edit: unless the old woman covered in bloody police brutality from fox fighting bull hunting murdered politicians is anything other than gibberish?

Could be ! I guess the repetitively looking for any crap going down on the continent and trying to nail it somehow on the EU is just wearing on my patience. Well let’s be honest it’s just an extrapolation of blaming all the UK self-inflicted ills on the EU.

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On 03/01/2018 at 8:43 PM, Untoward said:

I am of a similar complexion to these "Brown people".  Look at the age and the gender of these "Brown people". That is one of the pertinent points. The unlimited nature of freedom of movement is a ticking, socioeconomic time bomb. Do you disagree?

Well, here’s a ‘brown person’ experiencing the  ‘time bomb’ going off:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/jan/05/wunmi-mosaku-kiri-brexit-racism-british-nigerian-identity-channel-4-drama?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The day after the Brexit vote, someone asked her if she might want to go back to her “own country”. “It was really heartbreaking,” she says. “This is my country, this is my home. It reminded me that I wasn’t born here, and I hadn’t really thought about that.” Until the debate around Brexit turned nasty, she says she thought it was about Europe. “I didn’t think it was about me. [It was] quite shocking to see people pointing out people’s differences, skin tones, stuff like that. I was quite naive before because it never felt like …” A bit later, she says: “Racism hasn’t been an everyday thing in my life, overt racism. There is obviously structural differences, but hate? I’ve not really had that.”

 

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31 minutes ago, pig said:

Could be ! I guess the repetitively looking for any crap going down on the continent and trying to nail it somehow on the EU is just wearing on my patience. Well let’s be honest it’s just an extrapolation of blaming all the UK self-inflicted ills on the EU.

That's slightly more cogent. 

If you don't know the difference between fox hunting and fox fighting, then you're not really qualified to comment on British affairs.

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Quote

 

Philip Hammond risks new Cabinet rift

The Chancellor today put himself at odds with Cabinet Brexiteers by keeping the door open to a Turkey-style customs partnership with the EU after Brexit. He was asked by Treasury Select Committee chair Nicky Morgan in a letter to spell out if a customs union would be part of Britain’s end-state relationship with Brussels. 

The Chancellor, who favours a soft Brexit, declined to comment, leading to speculation he may ask the EU for a customs partnership when transitional arrangements end in 2021. His lack of clarity is likely to infuriate Brexiteers because a customs union would be a barrier to striking free trade deals with countries worldwide.

Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable said the Chancellor had offered reassurance that he understood the economic advantages of being part of a customs union. He took at aim at the Cabinet’s Brexiteers, adding: “What the ideologues do not seem to understand are the many technical complexities around breaking up a functioning customs union.” ES

 

It's clear that Philip Hammond sees soft Brexit as the only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.

 

PS: Thanks for correcting my spelling mistake.

Edited by rollover
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17 minutes ago, rollover said:

 

It's clear that Philip Hammond see soft Brexit as the only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.

Conjugation of the verb 'to see':

I see


he/she/it sees
we see
you see
they see

Phillip Hammond sees

edit: I won't begin to bother with 'only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.' - for reasons clear to any native English speaker, resident and registered voter.

Edited by Guest
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48 minutes ago, rollover said:

 

It's clear that Philip Hammond sees soft Brexit as the only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.

 

PS: Thanks for correcting my spelling mistake.

No worries - it's a start - but what about 'the only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.' - there's a multitude of obvious problems with that?

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22 minutes ago, highYield said:

No worries - it's a start - but what about 'the only possible option how to go out from the disorganization.' - there's a multitude of obvious problems with that?

I agree with you, there's a multitude of obvious problems with soft Brexit. But hard Brexit is not viable option at all.

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