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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.


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I do.   https://twitter.com/housepricemania

1409 pages....you guys should have your own forum !!!

Oh OK. Shame that really, but hey it looks like @IMHAL helped us both out. Nice repost though, thanks ! Any thoughts ?  

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1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

:wacko:Where to start?

I was questioning why anyone without skin in the game would bother posting.

Clearly you don't understand the meaning of the phrase, as if you did you would also understand the it applies whether the potential knock on effects are positive or negative.

To put it simply if Brexit has the potential to affect your life you have skin in the game.

NB I am more like the Leave voters than you think, for me the Leave vote had an immediate and large positive effect but despite this because I think it will damage the UK in the long term I am against Brexit.   

Talk about not covering yourself in glory, thinking back over your last few days posts there is not one that doesn't contain at least one of the following - a logic fail, a basic misunderstanding of a fairly common English word or a display of paranoia.  

You have completely missed the point. 

Many who voted Brexit have skin on the game TO LOSE By us leaving. But still voted for it as they think it's best for the UK. 

I've yet to hear a single remain voter the same. Not one. Online or in real life. 

 

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39 minutes ago, copydude said:

It certainly is a red herring in the context of Brexit. The post-rationale of the majority voting the 'wrong' way and the failure of Project Fear is that we are all racist bigots. I have spent over 30 years abroad in different countries and I know few as tolerant and multicultural as the UK. 

There are tomes written about negative advertising and why such campaigns fail. Were we expected to be bowled over by the charisma of Juncker and his band of crooks, control freaks and banker's shills? Did they think no one discusses the gang stomping of Greece and Cyprus or the fact that only one country really benefits from the single currency? 

No, anyone who voted Brexit must be a loopy reading fake news and deserves to be sent to the back of queue by Obama. The sheer arrogance of the Remain campaign probably alienated me before you got to any issues. 

I agree with most of what you say. However to state that EU immigration to the UK is a "red herring" shows a real lack of understanding on base root feelings and experiences of many who live in the UK. 

Many in the UK walk down their local street and think they have been teleported into Warsaw. 

Brexit was a chance to at least try and change that.

It's about as far from a red herring as it's possible to get imo. 

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5 minutes ago, ccc said:

You have completely missed the point. 

Many who voted Brexit have skin on the game TO LOSE By us leaving. But still voted for it as they think it's best for the UK. 

I've yet to hear a single remain voter the same. Not one. Online or in real life. 

 

Yes you have. Me!

Despite standing to profit from a Leave vote, I voted Remain as I think it is best for the country. 

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5 hours ago, copydude said:

It's the same as calling Brixton Brits Jamaicans.

Then why do you do it and repeat the Putinist irredentist rhetoric about Russians being persecuted in the Baltic states and in Ukraine.  I think we established previously that you can't speak Russian so I highly doubt you have a good handle on these issues.

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7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

They are fleeing a ******ing warzone created by Vladimir Putin.

The tanks went East, not West. Who bombed the airports, train stations, bus stations - all full of people, water filtration plants, power stations. Who laid siege to millions of Ukrainian civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk and cut off state workers from their pay and pensions as well as food and water? It wasn't the Russians.

My Russian isn't brilliant but it's enough to get by and I know enough Ukrainians who speak English to understand the linguistic and cultural divide between East and West and I've seen it first hand. History predates Putin . . . it's an artificial buffer state created by the Potsdam conference with all the conflicts built in. There's still a cultural and linguistic divide through the middle of Belgium, a buffer state created over 150 years ago. 

When you've read a history book and spent time in Ukraine I'll be happy to debate this subject with you. But here it's off-topic so take it to Current Affairs. 

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47 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Then why do you do it and repeat the Putinist irredentist rhetoric about Russians being persecuted in the Baltic states and in Ukraine.  I think we established previously that you can't speak Russian so I highly doubt you have a good handle on these issues.

I have first hand knowledge. They are indeed persecuted and generally not liked in Ukraine and the Baltic States too.

In Ukraine, they outlawed education text books in Russian and Russian language TV. The scene of burning people alive in Odessa should be testament enough. It's strange how civil wars can be the nastiest.

Of the three Baltic countries, Latvia dislikes the Russians more than the others - and actively suppresses Russian as a language. But for all three, there is a deserved cocktail of paranoia about Russian soft power and influence.

To those that underestimate Putin - don't. Just don't.

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1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Yes you have. Me!

Despite standing to profit from a Leave vote, I voted Remain as I think it is best for the country. 

How would you profit from a leave vote ? 

You've never pointed this out before - I may have missed it of course. 

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2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Yes you have. Me!

Despite standing to profit from a Leave vote, I voted Remain as I think it is best for the country. 

I think you are in the same camp as many Remain profiteers who voted Leave, thinking it might be best long term.

It's the old Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes song, aptly titled 'Leavin', which contains the line:

"It'll be okay, but it won't be today"  :lol:

 

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1 hour ago, copydude said:

When you've read a history book and spent time in Ukraine I'll be happy to debate this subject with you. But here it's off-topic so take it to Current Affairs. 

I speak Russian and have spent time in Donetsk as well as Kiev and western Ukraine and I think you're a bullshitter of the first order.

Edit: And if you think the state of Ukraine was created by the Potsdam conference, you badly need to acquaint yourself with some basic facts

Edited by thecrashingisles
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1 hour ago, jonb2 said:

I have first hand knowledge. They are indeed persecuted and generally not liked in Ukraine and the Baltic States too.

In Ukraine, they outlawed education text books in Russian and Russian language TV.

Have you ever watched Ukrainian TV?  The highest rated channel has lots of Russian language content.

 

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20 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

As discussed numerous times upthread, it's a remoaner narrative.

Farage et al, expounded the points based immigration system during the referendum campaign. 

If you can bear it :):

 

:lol: Nice effort !

But I'll raise you an INVASION OF BROWN PEOPLE :o !!!:

Quote

Or how about leave.eu's     INVASION OF SNAKES :o :o :o!!! ?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3583408/Leave-EU-Brexit-campaign-slammed-sharing-ugly-xenophobic-video-using-Donald-Trump-speech-violent-images-make-disgusting-warning-migrants.html

FFS In your head is this seriously all just a remoaner narrative lol ?

 

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1 hour ago, ccc said:

How would you profit from a leave vote ? 

You've never pointed this out before - I may have missed it of course. 

I did but admittedly it was over a thousand pages ago, so not surprising is no one remembers.

As I spent a fair bit of my career working in Europe or for the Commission I have two Euro pensions and even a small Zloty one. All instantly increased in value by around 10% on the night of the referendum vote and now stand about 15% higher . In addition my UK SIPP benefited from the exchange rate effect on the multinational companies in the FTSE.    

  

 

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45 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Have you ever watched Ukrainian TV?  The highest rated channel has lots of Russian language content.

 

Yes TCI there are a few shows like this. Incidently I prefer the Ukrainian language to listen to as it is quite mellow and sing-song compared to Russian.

But there has been a lot of politics and it's getting worse

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-condemns-education-law-ukraine-113317410.html

http://tass.com/world/975085

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/04/ukrainians-protest-russian-language-law

http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/03/ukraine-outlaws-many-russian-produced-police-shows-and-films

https://en.censor.net.ua/news/456879/poroshenko_banned_russian_language_in_schools_russian_media_react_to_new_ukraine_education_act

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-poroshenko-signs-controversial-language-bill-into-law/28757195.html

 

 

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1 hour ago, copydude said:

I think you are in the same camp as many Remain profiteers who voted Leave, thinking it might be best long term.

It's the old Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes song, aptly titled 'Leavin', which contains the line:

"It'll be okay, but it won't be today"  :lol:

 

Eh? 

I voted Remain, because I don't see the impact of Brexit as a temporary effect. On any foreseeable timescale we are going to be permanently poorer as even in twenty years time we will still be trying to replace the trading arrangements we are voluntarily giving up by leaving the single market. 

Of course some Leavers will accept this as a price worth paying. However, I suspect they will be less happy when it becomes clear we will either have to agree to carry on following the EU's rules/regulations with little say in their creation, or make the even more humiliating move to align with the US and follow their rules with absolutely no say in setting them and having to accept their secret courts.        

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11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Eh? 

I voted Remain, because I don't see the impact of Brexit as a temporary effect. On any foreseeable timescale we are going to be permanently poorer as even in twenty years time we will still be trying to replace the trading arrangements we are voluntarily giving up by leaving the single market. 

Of course some Leavers will accept this as a price worth paying. However, I suspect they will be less happy when it becomes clear we will either have to agree to carry on following the EU's rules/regulations with little say in their creation, or make the even more humiliating move to align with the US and follow their rules with absolutely no say in setting them and having to accept their secret courts.        

Indeed

TPP has reared it ugly head again today as they've had to wheel out Liam fox for a bit of Ra-Ra-Ra for the Brexit faithful

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2 hours ago, copydude said:

The tanks went East, not West. Who bombed the airports, train stations, bus stations - all full of people, water filtration plants, power stations. Who laid siege to millions of Ukrainian civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk and cut off state workers from their pay and pensions as well as food and water? It wasn't the Russians.

My Russian isn't brilliant but it's enough to get by and I know enough Ukrainians who speak English to understand the linguistic and cultural divide between East and West and I've seen it first hand. History predates Putin . . . it's an artificial buffer state created by the Potsdam conference with all the conflicts built in. There's still a cultural and linguistic divide through the middle of Belgium, a buffer state created over 150 years ago. 

When you've read a history book and spent time in Ukraine I'll be happy to debate this subject with you. But here it's off-topic so take it to Current Affairs. 

It doesn't seem very off topic - any mention of 'security' in relation to the EU seems mostly related to (justified*?) fear of Russia invading the EU. The EU's over-quick expansion into the remoter EE states also seems to have been mostly encouraged by the USA/UK axis to move the modern version of the iron curtain further east.

Plus, it's a nice change from the usual circular arguments.

* A super-bright Swiss friend of mine (founded an IT company there only a few years ago, and now has more than 100 employees) is utterly convinced that Russia will invade the EU, past Switzerland, within the next century)

edit: apologies for the Russian xenophopia, but I'm a leaver - and that's apparently what we do.

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28 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

 

The problem is that these stories make it sound like we're talking about something as stark as English versus Welsh but in reality the difference between Russian and Ukrainian is more like the difference between German and Swiss-German.  The Ukrainian government promotes it as a means to promote a sense of Ukrainian nationhood.  It might be misguided, but it isn't repressive.

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7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

 

The problem is that these stories make it sound like we're talking about something as stark as English versus Welsh but in reality the difference between Russian and Ukrainian is more like the difference between German and Swiss-German.  The Ukrainian government promotes it as a means to promote a sense of Ukrainian nationhood.  It might be misguided, but it isn't repressive.

errr.... Hoi! The Swiss Schweizerdeutsch speakers don't hate the Germans, because they didn't invade Switzerland and **** them up.

Edited by Guest
Swiss Germans > Swiss Schweizerdeutsch speakers
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4 hours ago, ccc said:

You have completely missed the point. 

Many who voted Brexit have skin on the game TO LOSE By us leaving. But still voted for it as they think it's best for the UK. 

I've yet to hear a single remain voter the same. Not one. Online or in real life. 

 

If you will pardon me for saying this and I mean this with the least offence possible. Its a ballony arguement.

Please read the what is written below carefully.

Brexit represents loss for 99% of the people and therefore the option to 1) take a loss and 2) vote remain does not exist for............. 99% of the people who voted remain........just maybe, perhaps and all that.

But try finding those who voted Leave and took a loss and ......viola.... they are everywhere.... I wonder why :rolleyes:

So, trying to find someone who 1) voted remain and 2) would have taken a loss because of it - is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

So the real reason the Brexiters appear 'altruistic' is because Brexit represents loss for the overwhelming majority of the British population - no really altruism, or some strong morals, just the fact that Brexit is a disaster economically.

(Caveat: Except for perhaps those few with Euro or other external holding not affected by the fckfest that is Brexit.)

Edited by IMHAL
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54 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Jeeze. Jonb2 - we're all Brexit geeks here, but posting 6 random links with no commentary is uncommented overload even for us.

Please would you take it an article or two at a time, maybe quoting relevant parts that pertain to the comment you're answering?

There's sufficient comments/stuff here to read already!

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11 hours ago, highYield said:

Capital investment in infrastructure in our decaying port towns would be a good thing, IMO. Increasing jobs and the apparently all important GDP.

The FT article is interesting, but with their usual remainer slant. e.g. 'Precise statistics are elusive on how much of the work at Rotterdam is for the UK’s benefit'. It's for the workers of Rotterdam's benefit, not our port workers!

We shouldn't have to rely on Rotterdam's infrastructure to trade with e.g. South America - we need to build our own, and do the trading ourselves, without the Dutch taking a slice as middle men.

You are not serious, Britain would need to import masses of foreign workers to do the jobs.

Edited by rollover
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22 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

 

The problem is that these stories make it sound like we're talking about something as stark as English versus Welsh but in reality the difference between Russian and Ukrainian is more like the difference between German and Swiss-German.  The Ukrainian government promotes it as a means to promote a sense of Ukrainian nationhood.  It might be misguided, but it isn't repressive.

My Russian friends there would disagree. My Ukrainian friends now dislike the Russians even more. I know two mixed father/mother families who have split over the issue of the east.

It's something I have never truly understood. They are essentially from the same Slav stock. Kiev was the capital of old Russia. There were a lot of Nazi sympathisers and collaborators in the west of the country. The neo-fascist movement is mainly western Ukraine.

Corruption is rife. I think this more than anything divides society. It's extremely corrosive. I know a few older Russians (parents of friends) who used to work for the party. Their pensions are about a third of their fellow retirees in the Motherland. Bitter they are. Which adds to the loss of unity - Yeltsin's drunken gifting of Ukraine to his crony Oligarch friends.

There is something truly tragic about the Slavs of the further European east. Never have they been given a chance to shine after hundreds of years of strife, feudalism and exploitation. Great warm people, with big brains, but they now have survival by deception as part of  their DNA.

I just hope we don't go the same way after Brexit :-)

Edited by jonb2
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6 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Brexit represents loss for 99% of the people and therefore the option to 1) take a loss and 2) vote remain does not exist for............. 99% of the people who voted remain........just maybe, perhaps and all that.

Not a loss for me. I have mortgage debt that will be eroded by the falling Pound while my assets priced internationally increase in value. I have an EU passport, educated with in demand skills. I plan on living in Europe in due course. I think I could do very well from brexit.

I voted remain not for my own interests (at least not short term ones) but because I believe in the social ideals of the EU. I want a less divided world and I want everyone to have similar opportunities to make better lives for themselves across 28 (27...) countries, rather than just rich educated people. 

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