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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.


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Just now, debtlessmanc said:

People do move around to choose where to be homeless - that is why the biggest homeless population of the US of A is in Southern California, which is better place to homeless than (eg) Wisconsin. So you- are wrong, I’m sure you will admit it. 

Sure, I guess they came to the UK for it's wonderful dry and warm winters...

It's an idiotic thing to say that people come here, of all places, to be homeless.  Nice straw man about Southern California and Wisconsin, pretty much proving my point.  Why would people wish to move from bitter winters and wet summers to dry and warm winters and hot summers, I have no idea...

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I do.   https://twitter.com/housepricemania

1409 pages....you guys should have your own forum !!!

Oh OK. Shame that really, but hey it looks like @IMHAL helped us both out. Nice repost though, thanks ! Any thoughts ?  

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Just now, HairyOb1 said:

Sure, I guess they came to the UK for it's wonderful dry and warm winters...

It's an idiotic thing to say that people come here, of all places, to be homeless.  Nice straw man about Southern California and Wisconsin, pretty much proving my point.  Why would people wish to move from bitter winters and wet summers to dry and warm winters and hot summers, I have no idea...

Polish winters are warmer than London eh? I did live in Southern California (which is a wealthier part off the us) friend worked for homeless charity. Many of the homeless in SC chose to be so their rather than work McJobs in poorer/colder parts of US so it is a relevant point  

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2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Polish winters are warmer than London eh? I did live in Southern California (which is a wealthier part off the us) friend worked for homeless charity. Many of the homeless in SC chose to be so their rather than work McJobs in poorer/colder parts of US so it is a relevant point  

It's utterly irrelevant.  You've literally just said in a nutshell why homeless people move there.

Quick question for you sport: is it warmer in winter in London, or Malaga?  Romanians have a language more similar to Spanish than English, so if this was the draw, you know, that delightful UK weather, why would they choose here and not somewhere more similar in language and with better weather?

You're talking nonsense.

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Just now, HairyOb1 said:

It's utterly irrelevant.  You've literally just said in a nutshell why homeless people move there.

Quick question for you sport: is it warmer in winter in London, or Malaga?  Romanians have a language more similar to Spanish than English, so if this was the draw, you know, that delightful UK weather, why would they choose here and not somewhere more similar in language and with better weather?

You're talking nonsense.

So Romanians can talk to Spanish people dead easily (yes it’s a romance language but they cannot converse I have worked with Romanians and discussed this) move to Spain - yes warmer but all hope of a job will go out of the window given youth unemployment . You really are talking complete ********

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Just now, debtlessmanc said:

So Romanians can talk to Spanish people dead easily (yes it’s a romance language but they cannot converse I have worked with Romanians and discussed this) move to Spain - yes warmer but all hope of a job will go out of the window given youth unemployment . You really are talking complete ********

Oh god, you're struggling with this aren't you. 

First you say people turn down jobs in the colder parts of the US to be homeless in warmer part, then say they want jobs, that's why they move.  You then infer it's all young folk who are homeless who come here.

You also said earlier they come here purposefully homeless.

I know you're struggling with the notion, but you've literally in 4 posts, turned your whole argument on it's head.  And an academic.  Sure.

I worked in SC for a year in the 80's, as a barman.  I'd choose it over so many other places in the states as it's dry and warm in winter.  There's a link.

People come to the UK for its weather.  Said no one, ever...

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9 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Sorry - to add  the bliar fest

he promised a vote on Lisbon that never happened (many other EU countries did). This is the main reason we are in this much s**t. The problems were stored away til later

What difference would a vote on this issue have made, the fascists in the EU would have had done as they pleased regardless. See how Irelands referendum on this was rejected and Quislings on here salivate over this fascist regime

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15 hours ago, DeepLurker said:

I often read the above, but I struggle to reconcile it with reality.

The most popular media in the UK is TV. How many of the most popular TV channels are right-wing? How many are pro-Brexit?

Same question for the radio stations.

The only media where right-wing views are strongly represented is print.

Er all of Sky?!

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12 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Oh god, you're struggling with this aren't you. 

First you say people turn down jobs in the colder parts of the US to be homeless in warmer part, then say they want jobs, that's why they move.  You then infer it's all young folk who are homeless who come here.

You also said earlier they come here purposefully homeless.

I know you're struggling with the notion, but you've literally in 4 posts, turned your whole argument on it's head.  And an academic.  Sure.

I worked in SC for a year in the 80's, as a barman.  I'd choose it over so many other places in the states as it's dry and warm in winter.  There's a link.

People come to the UK for its weather.  Said no one, ever...

You are so obsessed with the virtue of your beloved EU you can no longer follow logic

juat as Americans move to SC for the glamour of California, hoping to make it big or at least stay warm. So many EE see london or the UK as a good place to make your living. So that is in common. They move here with no clear plan and end up homeless. Existing EU laws on the face it can prevent this but do not in practice 

the us struggles with this problem too, but it doesn’t have a welfare state or a lack space for accommodation. 

The EU keeps wanting to build a United States of Europe but with a social agenda. It will fail both monetarily and socially 

Edited by debtlessmanc
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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Read what I wrote - the papers portrayed it as a problem with the uk. Ie other countries did not expel homeless E.U. citizens, they do

I know but as the article didn't make sense i assumed that it was the usual passing of the blame for a UK **** up onto the EU, and was surprised that you took it at face value and posted without checking.

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4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

You are so obsessed with the virtue of your beloved EU you can no longer follow logic

juat as Americans move to SC for the glamour of California, hoping to make it big or at least stay warm. So many EE see london or the UK as a good place to make your living. So that is in common.

the us struggles with this problem too, but it doesn’t have a welfare or a lack accommodation. 

The EU keeps wanting to build a United States of Europe but with a social agenda. It will fail both monetarily and socially 

You are a parody, surely?  I can't follow logic, when you've just pissed all over your own argument in 4 posts?

So now they move to SC for the glamour and hopes of making it big?  They come here for the weather you inferred, now it's to make it big as the UK is glamourous.  Yes, the homeless EU folk of Hull and Wolverhampton came here for the glamour and chances life gives them there.

You think it will fail monetarily and socially, you don't know it.  As far as I can see, its growth is outstripping ours at a canter.

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1 minute ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I know but as the article didn't make sense i assumed that it was the usual passing of the blame for a UK **** up onto the EU, and was surprised that you took it at face value and posted without checking.

Indeed.

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1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

I might add that, of course we don’t know, but I would say with 90% certainty that the reason the HO did this was advice from those on the ground that when the nice EU migrants who were sleeping rough, many of whom appeared to have just arrived and have no interest in regular work we’re asked to register with their local commune. They said “okay” and then promptly disappeared to another part of London or the uk. Do E.U. laws have anything to say about what to do in this situation? 

No interest in work

32 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

People do move around to choose where to be homeless - that is why the biggest homeless population of the US of A is in Southern California, which is better place to homeless than (eg) Wisconsin. So you- are wrong, I’m sure you will admit it. 

Homeless people move to warmer dryer parts of the country

27 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Polish winters are warmer than London eh? I did live in Southern California (which is a wealthier part off the us) friend worked for homeless charity. Many of the homeless in SC chose to be so their rather than work McJobs in poorer/colder parts of US so it is a relevant point  

Choose homelessness over work

21 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

So Romanians can talk to Spanish people dead easily (yes it’s a romance language but they cannot converse I have worked with Romanians and discussed this) move to Spain - yes warmer but all hope of a job will go out of the window given youth unemployment . You really are talking complete ********

Don't go to Spain as it has higher youth unemployment....

But now, they come to the UK and SC for the glamour and hope of making it large.

I think you're a very strange man...

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1 minute ago, HairyOb1 said:

No interest in work

Homeless people move to warmer dryer parts of the country

Choose homelessness over work

Don't go to Spain as it has higher youth unemployment....

But now, they come to the UK and SC for the glamour and hope of making it large.

I think you're a very strange man...

I gave up with him - goldfish to put it politely. He makes CCC sound reasonable.

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3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

I might add that, of course we don’t know, but I would say with 90% certainty that the reason the HO did this was advice from those on the ground that when the nice EU migrants who were sleeping rough, many of whom appeared to have just arrived and have no interest in regular work we’re asked to register with their local commune. They said “okay” and then promptly disappeared to another part of London or the uk. Do E.U. laws have anything to say about what to do in this situation? 

The uk has a problem imposing these rules for historical reasons. It hasn’t felt the need to impose identity cards or to require evidence to work or exist - not for hundreds of years. Continental countries have that built into their traditions. I loved in France (20 years ago) and I used to see everyday people begging prominently displaying their French ID card. Never seen that in the uk. Indeed the main badge is/was accent. Friend who has lived and worked in Canada for 20 years . Recently cut his hand whilst  visiting his mum. Went to casualty got it treated. I asked - “I presume you have to pay as you haven’t paid uk tax in 20 years. He replied in his broad Norfolk drawl “nah - they never asked”

as I said before it many ways it make us perfect Europeans. I suspect it will destroy the uk and EU will simply break up relatively intact leaving us possibly balkanised in the longer run.

edit to add

of course we had ID cards in WW2 as an emergency but even then there was widespread civil disobedience over the issue at first.

Vagrancy laws. We've had them since the Napoleonic wars. Just need to be enforced. 

By us. 

But keep blaming the EU. 

I'm truly disappointed with you debtM.

I rationalized away your hatred of all things EU because you had  dealings in a professional capacity with a mental Italian who caused you all manner of sh1t, but you're just coming across as a swivel-eyed loon now

Yes I know. The black death did come over from Europe; but it's not the fault of the EU - unless you believe every word from the lips of St Nigel of Farage. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

So Romanians can talk to Spanish people dead easily (yes it’s a romance language but they cannot converse I have worked with Romanians and discussed this) move to Spain - yes warmer but all hope of a job will go out of the window given youth unemployment . You really are talking complete ********

Most Romanians making use of FoM end up in Italy (1.2m ) or Spain (0.6m). There are probably about 0.35m in the UK.  

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32 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Most Romanians making use of FoM end up in Italy (1.2m ) or Spain (0.6m). There are probably about 0.35m in the UK.  

okay...

Response to this- the article was about polish and lithuanian people, one of you raised the issue of romanians  in order to muddle the issue and make a different point, you should be replying to them not me.

I'll ask my original question again "is not homelessness in the EU not a problem for all people in the EU or is it only for those that step over the bodies?

Why do i (very occasionally) post here? to judge the thinking of the pro-eu lobby, so yes some of points are a bit weird but it reveals your thinking too. Anyway I always find it very similar to the religious fundies i used to debate  about evolution, very dogmatic and quick to dismiss any evidence that they may be any problem at all in their 'faith'

anyway to post my real personal experience objection again from this site  - https://www.eui.eu/

Higher education non nationals EU academics

UK 23% (currently)

France (7% new staff, current staff will be lower)

Germany no exact statistics  but this quote "While German universities are in general considered to be not very open to non-nationals or academics with foreign academic background, this is not always the case"

Italy  - no stats but this quote "In general, Italian universities are difficult to access for non-nationals,"

in fact read this article, unless you are related to the head of school your chances are nearly zero

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/anti-corruption-boss-target-italian-universities

The thing is this the job-market i know about but it seems to me to be a paradigm for the problem, whilst VCs of course will argue that being able to recruit endless numbers of qualified people on short time low pay contracts (becoming the norm in academia) they are no better than the land owning tory farmers with their cheap cabbage pickers or the champagne socialists who need a cheap extension to their house. The openness of the UK to employing people with irregular qualifications from abroad is very disadvantages to UK educated people in a free market.

History is clear on this social mobility is driven by a shortage of and thus high value on labour, for example after the black death (peasants revolt was about the crackdown on the nouveau rich created at the time). Also after other wars but most recently in the 50's 60's and 70's after the invention of first contraception than legalisation of abortion (see "Freakanomics" for this view with evidence) to reduce the population growth. The EU and freedom of movement is actually about restoring the pretechnology status quo of rapidly growing populations, desperation to get out of poverty being use to enrich billionaires and crush social mobility for the most able, except perhaps by the kleptocracy of the political system (Blair and the folk in Brussels)

Many page ago i put my view, mankind will eventually find happiness in some form of anarchistic govt, with technology doing the difficulty stuff. In the meantime some kind of federation of westphalian European states would have been sufficient. What we have is an attempt to build a new roman empire, why is it any likely to be better than any of the previous attempts?

 

 

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4 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

This is called democracy; you vote in a party and they make decisions on your behalf.  If you don't like it, you vote for another party and take your chances.  This is called democracy, and has got us into this shitshoot we're currently in.

Like I said before, it’s not like they put invasion of countries and war in their manifesto.. 

we are powerless to the whims of the elite.. they do what they like and when we are viewed from overseas it becomes WE.. like WE are responsible for the crimes of the elite

Once their in power you have to wait to get rid of them, then because of the club to which they are members they can be helicoptered into safe seats and come back! No point in running against them as we don’t have the banks, house builders and unions giving us millions to campaign! 

 

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1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

okay...

Response to this- the article was about polish and lithuanian people, one of you raised the issue of romanians  in order to muddle the issue and make a different point, you should be replying to them not me.

I'll ask my original question again "is not homelessness in the EU not a problem for all people in the EU or is it only for those that step over the bodies?

Why do i (very occasionally) post here? to judge the thinking of the pro-eu lobby, so yes some of points are a bit weird but it reveals your thinking too. Anyway I always find it very similar to the religious fundies i used to debate  about evolution, very dogmatic and quick to dismiss any evidence that they may be any problem at all in their 'faith'

anyway to post my real personal experience objection again from this site  - https://www.eui.eu/

Higher education non nationals EU academics

UK 23% (currently)

France (7% new staff, current staff will be lower)

Germany no exact statistics  but this quote "While German universities are in general considered to be not very open to non-nationals or academics with foreign academic background, this is not always the case"

Italy  - no stats but this quote "In general, Italian universities are difficult to access for non-nationals,"

in fact read this article, unless you are related to the head of school your chances are nearly zero

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/anti-corruption-boss-target-italian-universities

The thing is this the job-market i know about but it seems to me to be a paradigm for the problem, whilst VCs of course will argue that being able to recruit endless numbers of qualified people on short time low pay contracts (becoming the norm in academia) they are no better than the land owning tory farmers with their cheap cabbage pickers or the champagne socialists who need a cheap extension to their house. The openness of the UK to employing people with irregular qualifications from abroad is very disadvantages to UK educated people in a free market.

History is clear on this social mobility is driven by a shortage of and thus high value on labour, for example after the black death (peasants revolt was about the crackdown on the nouveau rich created at the time). Also after other wars but most recently in the 50's 60's and 70's after the invention of first contraception than legalisation of abortion (see "Freakanomics" for this view with evidence) to reduce the population growth. The EU and freedom of movement is actually about restoring the pretechnology status quo of rapidly growing populations, desperation to get out of poverty being use to enrich billionaires and crush social mobility for the most able, except perhaps by the kleptocracy of the political system (Blair and the folk in Brussels)

Many page ago i put my view, mankind will eventually find happiness in some form of anarchistic govt, with technology doing the difficulty stuff. In the meantime some kind of federation of westphalian European states would have been sufficient. What we have is an attempt to build a new roman empire, why is it any likely to be better than any of the previous attempts?

 

 

You used Eastern Europeans, then said Polish: 'So it's not warmer than Poland'.

You disproved your own argument and made 3 new ones inside 4 posts.  It's either idiocy, or brilliance: I am leaning on the former.

IMHAL was right, you're worse than ccc and that's saying something...

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13 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

You used Eastern Europeans, then said Polish: 'So it's not warmer than Poland'.

You disproved your own argument and made 3 new ones inside 4 posts.  It's either idiocy, or brilliance: I am leaning on the former.

IMHAL was right, you're worse than ccc and that's saying something...

The original article said 2 polish men and a lithuanian - please comment on the article

its a bit like trying to discuss the mona lisa with someone who thinks the background is slightly to grey for their liking and thinks it might be just good enough to hang in the royal toilet.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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17 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

You used Eastern Europeans, then said Polish: 'So it's not warmer than Poland'.

You disproved your own argument and made 3 new ones inside 4 posts.  It's either idiocy, or brilliance: I am leaning on the former.

IMHAL was right, you're worse than ccc and that's saying something...

All he’s trying to say is that we are at risk of 500m undesirable homeless people moving to St Ives claiming hb, reducing wages speaking funny languages and not contributing anything. Simple really.  

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20 minutes ago, pig said:

All he’s trying to say is that we are at risk of 500m undesirable homeless people moving to St Ives claiming hb, reducing wages speaking funny languages and not contributing anything. Simple really.  

oh for goodness sake- of course not, there is a connection i am trying to make between the wealthy elite suppressing wages for their personal benefit. It is a symptom of the mass use of minimum wage labour from other EU countries that we also have homeless people from those states.

It always come back to this doesnt it? he is a racist, he is a little englander etc what other possible reasons can he have for being upset that we have turned into a low wage low skill economy? 

No i am just saying that historically the availability of cheap mass labour was used to control people. That went away in the early part of this century because social and technological changes. It has now been brought back by the means of the EU, it is not the cheap labours fault it is those that would keeps us in our places. I am lucky at my age i went through the system that gave me a good, free, education and where there was not the insane competition for jobs. 

How on earth can growing the population in 8 years more than it grew in the last 35 years at the same time as stagnating wages and productivity do any good for the country and its resources in the longer term?

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3 hours ago, knock out johnny said:

I rationalized away your hatred of all things EU because you had  dealings in a professional capacity with a mental Italian who caused you all manner of sh1t, but you're just coming across as a swivel-eyed loon now

 

 

 

Your goalposts have shifted i suspect.

Why are you surprised that someone who is a misanthrope, who views 99% of politicians as thieves, and believes that without population control mankind is doomed to self annihilation, be in favour of the superstate EU?

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19 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Your goalposts have shifted i suspect.

Why are you surprised that someone who is a misanthrope, who views 99% of politicians as thieves, and believes that without population control mankind is doomed to self annihilation, be in favour of the superstate EU?

The actual population growth across the EU is roughly neutral - so not quite sure why the 'superstate EU' is a beef for you??? - why don't you post on forums where populatipon growth is an issue, India for example.

Genuinly puzzled at the abrupt changes of tak in your frankly, incoherent rambling.

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9 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The actual population growth across the EU is roughly neutral - so not quite sure why the 'superstate EU' is a beef for you??? - why don't you post on forums where populatipon growth is an issue, India for example.

Genuinly puzzled at the abrupt changes of tak in your frankly, incoherent rambling.

Its not rambling the theme is two sentences- Historically shortage of labour gives rise to social mobility, excess of cheap labour suppresses mobility and meets the aims of the wealthy rulers, the EU is the latest mechanism used to do this. It is not a quaker social conscience movement but a kind casino played by countries to see who can get most out of it. 

When i am completely straight and make my points. no-one replies. Are you not worried that the jobs market in other european countries is nowhere as open to people educated in the UK as ours is to those from other EU states (i gave the stats above and refs)? It really is like debating with the religious faithful.

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