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I do.   https://twitter.com/housepricemania

1409 pages....you guys should have your own forum !!!

Oh OK. Shame that really, but hey it looks like @IMHAL helped us both out. Nice repost though, thanks ! Any thoughts ?  

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8 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I sympathise with your concerns, but brexit will not deliver what you want.

While we have a Caesar in Brussels who can simply tell us we have to take refugees or homeless people come what may- the problem macca raises are completely out of our control. It is the main attraction of the EU to the smaller and poorer countries. They can escape their historical problems by exporting them.

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10 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

While we have a Caesar in Brussels who can simply tell us we have to take refugees or homeless people come what may- the problem macca raises are completely out of our control. It is the main attraction of the EU to the smaller and poorer countries. They can escape their historical problems by exporting them.

What are their historical problems?

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15 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

While we have a Caesar in Brussels who can simply tell us we have to take refugees or homeless people come what may- the problem macca raises are completely out of control. It is the main attraction of the EU to the smaller and poorer countries. They can escape their historical problems by exporting them.

You'll find that they are trying to sensibly manage and distribute refugees who arrive on the shores of europe because they are trying to flee a conflict and the fall out that we had a large part in creating. 

The ones who are economic migrants, we all have the authority to turn back.

There is no policy to manage the homeless out of or into any particular country - i don't think the wet weather in the uk is much of a draw for anyone who wants to stay homeless.

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1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

You'll find that they are trying to sensibly manage and distribute refugees who arrive on the shores of europe because they are trying to flee a conflict and the fall out that we had a large part in creating. 

The ones who are economic migrants, we all have the authority to turn back.

There is no policy to manage the homeless out of or into any particular country - i don't think the wet weather in the uk is much of a draw for anyone who wants to stay homeless.

We really don’t have to go through this again but at least 50% of the refugees in Southern Europe have never been near a conflict provoked by anyone in Europe. With the upper range of the UNs estimate of African population by 2100 being 8Bn I think the Mediterranean will look like a warzone by then whatever the EU says or does. If it sticks to its humanitarian principles anyway. 

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12 minutes ago, rollover said:

What are their historical problems?

Corruption for one - I spent a whole year trying to deal with an idiot from a Southern European country who was appointed to a job (in my organisation) by a friend of his father (all the same nationality) who has not qualifications for the job and whose almost first action was to get accused of sexual harrasment by a colleague.

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12 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

trying to flee a conflict and the fall out that we had a large part in creating. 

The ones who are economic migrants, we all have the authority to turn back.

What’s with the WE.. 

My family have nothing to do with it.. EVER!

The elites were responsible for Slavery, 

The elites are responsible for poverty

The elites are responsible for war and invasions

They own all the land that they whipped peasants and stole many years ago.. that’s why I dislike the royal thieving family.. 

I never got a vote nor was I consulted.. for 1 I never voted for Blair or his government, 2 he never said he would start an illegal war in his manifesto so even those who did vote for him can't be held to account.. we are impotent  

I feel Tony Blair and Bush should personally pay for all this.. Blair has15 BTL properties so he can start by housing 15 families for free

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2 minutes ago, macca13 said:

What’s with the WE.. 

My family have nothing to do with it.. EVER!

The elites were responsible for Slavery, 

The elites are responsible for poverty

The elites are responsible for war and invasions

They own all the land that they whipped peasants and stole many years ago.. that’s why I dislike the royal thieving family.. 

I never got a vote nor was I consulted.. for 1 I never voted for Blair or his government, 2 he never said he would start an illegal war in his manifesto so even those who did vote for him can't be held to account.. we are impotent  

I feel Tony Blair and Bush should personally pay for all this.. Blair has15 BTL properties so he can start by housing 15 families for free

Sorry - to add  the bliar fest

he promised a vote on Lisbon that never happened (many other EU countries did). This is the main reason we are in this much s**t. The problems were stored away til later

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5 minutes ago, macca13 said:

What’s with the WE.. 

My family have nothing to do with it.. EVER!

The elites were responsible for Slavery, 

The elites are responsible for poverty

The elites are responsible for war and invasions

They own all the land that they whipped peasants and stole many years ago.. that’s why I dislike the royal thieving family.. 

I never got a vote nor was I consulted.. for 1 I never voted for Blair or his government, 2 he never said he would start an illegal war in his manifesto so even those who did vote for him can't be held to account.. we are impotent  

I feel Tony Blair and Bush should personally pay for all this.. Blair has15 BTL properties so he can start by housing 15 families for free

And you think i like what blair did? Him and bush have a lot to answer for.

The 'we' refers to our county, as in britain can turn back economic migrants.

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1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said:

Sorry - to add  the bliar fest

he promised a vote on Lisbon that never happened (many other EU countries did). This is the main reason we are in this much s**t. The problems were stored away til later

His evil wife was in charge of trying to stop S24.. she did not manage too.. 

she claimed.. and I quote: 

“S24 will make millions of families homeless due to rent rises as landlords costs increase”

what an evil cow ? 

i like to think the homeless ones will be the landlords when this all collapses. Wishful thinking.. 

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26 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

We really don’t have to go through this again but at least 50% of the refugees in Southern Europe have never been near a conflict provoked by anyone in Europe. With the upper range of the UNs estimate of African population by 2100 being 8Bn I think the Mediterranean will look like a warzone by then whatever the EU says or does. If it sticks to its humanitarian principles anyway. 

Then those economic migrants can be sent back.

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3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Did this news make it onto this thread?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

We were assured all the way through the vote that problems such as the enormous numbers of homeless EU citizens in the UK were simply failures of the our politicians to actually apply EU law. No it turns out this was a lie too, we cannot deport non-working homeless EU citizens. There is even a threat that the ECJ will get involved, remember wh have just signed up to EU citizens here being subject to the ECJ for 8 years. Is this not a case of the bullying EU attempting to impose its homeless on us? What are they up to, they claim to be worried about their citizens rights in the UK but the first example they got upset about it the deportation of homeless people sleeping rough? is this really caring for its citizens or the firs of many to come uses of the ECJ to be a right royal pain in the **** to the british people and goverment?

 

 

3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

So we have a responsibility to solve the housing problem for 500M EU citizens?

This is how this court ruling was been spun by Farage the Liar et al - that we can't deport homeless eu'ers so we have to house them - it's nonsense and I'm surprised at you Debtm

all the court is saying is that being homeless is not according to the law (that's all courts do, apply the law) a valid method to decide to deport back to the EU. it's a form of ultra vires

Should the governement want to deport eu nationals who cannot support themselves, they need to apply the residency rules that are available in place. Much like in belgium. The question needs to be asked " If you intend to work or remain in Belgium Britain for more than 3 months you must apply to the local communal authorities for a residence permit." 

At this point, a residence permit will not be issued with no fixed abode and off back to foreignland they go. All the court has decided is it's not permissable is to round up homeless people, ask them their nationality and ship them out if they're eu'ers. The court has never said we must house them if homeless

 

To take the ruling and extrapolating that homeless people cannot be deported and furthermore must be housed is adding 2+2 and getting banana. 

The key phrase in the article (which i presume is taken from the ruling) is:

The court ruled that the Home Office’s position was contrary to EU law. It also found the policy was discriminatory and amounted to an unlawful systematic verification of the EEA nationals’ rights to reside.

 

It's discriminatory as an eu has right to reside in this country, but is sent back because he is from the eu and homeless, whereas an american or australian with right to reside in the UK who is also homeless would not be deported anywhere

The unlawful systematic verification is the ultra vires part that I mentioned earlier

 

But i guess haters gotta hate - keep lapping up those Farage porkies

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Quote

 

Tory rebels urge Theresa May to form cross-party alliance for soft Brexit

Conservative backbench rebels who defeated the government last week are urging Theresa May to reach out to Labour MPs and form a cross-party alliance for a soft Brexit and face down hard Brexiters. Guardian

 

It looks like sensible solution to the Brexit issue. But I doubt it will happen.

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1 hour ago, knock out johnny said:

 

This is how this court ruling was been spun by Farage the Liar et al - that we can't deport homeless eu'ers so we have to house them - it's nonsense and I'm surprised at you Debtm

all the court is saying is that being homeless is not according to the law (that's all courts do, apply the law) a valid method to decide to deport back to the EU. it's a form of ultra vires

Should the governement want to deport eu nationals who cannot support themselves, they need to apply the residency rules that are available in place. Much like in belgium. The question needs to be asked " If you intend to work or remain in Belgium Britain for more than 3 months you must apply to the local communal authorities for a residence permit." 

At this point, a residence permit will not be issued with no fixed abode and off back to foreignland they go. All the court has decided is it's not permissable is to round up homeless people, ask them their nationality and ship them out if they're eu'ers. The court has never said we must house them if homeless

 

To take the ruling and extrapolating that homeless people cannot be deported and furthermore must be housed is adding 2+2 and getting banana. 

The key phrase in the article (which i presume is taken from the ruling) is:

The court ruled that the Home Office’s position was contrary to EU law. It also found the policy was discriminatory and amounted to an unlawful systematic verification of the EEA nationals’ rights to reside.

 

It's discriminatory as an eu has right to reside in this country, but is sent back because he is from the eu and homeless, whereas an american or australian with right to reside in the UK who is also homeless would not be deported anywhere

The unlawful systematic verification is the ultra vires part that I mentioned earlier

 

But i guess haters gotta hate - keep lapping up those Farage porkies

I stand educated - tbh the guardian article on the case spun it exactly as though it was a brexit/farage /xenophobia inspired Act of hatred. I was aware that other countries had a solution to the problem but not one of the uk media reported this- just portrayed it as a uk problem.

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1 hour ago, knock out johnny said:

 

This is how this court ruling was been spun by Farage the Liar et al - that we can't deport homeless eu'ers so we have to house them - it's nonsense and I'm surprised at you Debtm

all the court is saying is that being homeless is not according to the law (that's all courts do, apply the law) a valid method to decide to deport back to the EU. it's a form of ultra vires

Should the governement want to deport eu nationals who cannot support themselves, they need to apply the residency rules that are available in place. Much like in belgium. The question needs to be asked " If you intend to work or remain in Belgium Britain for more than 3 months you must apply to the local communal authorities for a residence permit." 

At this point, a residence permit will not be issued with no fixed abode and off back to foreignland they go. All the court has decided is it's not permissable is to round up homeless people, ask them their nationality and ship them out if they're eu'ers. The court has never said we must house them if homeless

 

To take the ruling and extrapolating that homeless people cannot be deported and furthermore must be housed is adding 2+2 and getting banana. 

The key phrase in the article (which i presume is taken from the ruling) is:

The court ruled that the Home Office’s position was contrary to EU law. It also found the policy was discriminatory and amounted to an unlawful systematic verification of the EEA nationals’ rights to reside.

 

It's discriminatory as an eu has right to reside in this country, but is sent back because he is from the eu and homeless, whereas an american or australian with right to reside in the UK who is also homeless would not be deported anywhere

The unlawful systematic verification is the ultra vires part that I mentioned earlier

 

But i guess haters gotta hate - keep lapping up those Farage porkies

Knockout response. 

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2 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

I stand educated - tbh the guardian article on the case spun it exactly as though it was a brexit/farage /xenophobia inspired Act of hatred. I was aware that other countries had a solution to the problem but not one of the uk media reported this- just portrayed it as a uk problem.

I didn't actually bother to look up the details but assumed, as our courts are generally pretty sensible and not beholden to the EU, that the reality would be as KOJ explained. I would have thought that most academics would have come to the same conclusion or if they decided to quote the article at least checked the facts before doing so.

It should be no surprise that the UK papers portrayed this as problem with the EU laws, over the past 30 years they and our politicians have got into the habit of blaming our own failures on the EU. 

 

 

 

    

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6 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I didn't actually bother to look up the details but assumed, as our courts are generally pretty sensible and not beholden to the EU, that the reality would be as KOJ explained. I would have thought that most academics would have come to the same conclusion or if they decided to quote the article at least checked the facts before doing so.

It should be no surprise that the UK papers portrayed this as problem with the EU laws, over the past 30 years they and our politicians have got into the habit of blaming our own failures on the EU. 

 

 

 

    

Read what I wrote - the papers portrayed it as a problem with the uk. Ie other countries did not expel homeless E.U. citizens, they do

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12 hours ago, rollover said:

“If you don't know where you are going any road can take you there”― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Quite - in fact some people think that Brexit IS the destination. Its truly amazing.:lol:

So to recap, we don't like where we are (the EU), we defo don't like the alternative but not as good as where we are options, which are Canada and Norway. The default 'fall-out of the EU option' is WTO which is a disaster by any stretch (according to everyone except for a few swivel eyes and now even they are having problems justifying it).

Looks like the old 'grass is always greener' bug has bitten Britain.

We rushed to go down the rabbit hole and now we can't back-up. Still....... we have the Mad Hatters, MJ, BJ, NF and JRM to lead us so I'm sure we will be Ok.

I'm sure that I can think of a few more overused cliches.... but right now I have  other things to do and.....time is of the essence.

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9 hours ago, IMHAL said:

Knockout response. 

I might add that, of course we don’t know, but I would say with 90% certainty that the reason the HO did this was advice from those on the ground that when the nice EU migrants who were sleeping rough, many of whom appeared to have just arrived and have no interest in regular work we’re asked to register with their local commune. They said “okay” and then promptly disappeared to another part of London or the uk. Do E.U. laws have anything to say about what to do in this situation? 

The uk has a problem imposing these rules for historical reasons. It hasn’t felt the need to impose identity cards or to require evidence to work or exist - not for hundreds of years. Continental countries have that built into their traditions. I loved in France (20 years ago) and I used to see everyday people begging prominently displaying their French ID card. Never seen that in the uk. Indeed the main badge is/was accent. Friend who has lived and worked in Canada for 20 years . Recently cut his hand whilst  visiting his mum. Went to casualty got it treated. I asked - “I presume you have to pay as you haven’t paid uk tax in 20 years. He replied in his broad Norfolk drawl “nah - they never asked”

as I said before it many ways it make us perfect Europeans. I suspect it will destroy the uk and EU will simply break up relatively intact leaving us possibly balkanised in the longer run.

edit to add

of course we had ID cards in WW2 as an emergency but even then there was widespread civil disobedience over the issue at first.

Edited by debtlessmanc
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To add to my previous post-

my son now has a French girlfriend. She speaks English almost without an accent. Although the first time she came here was to see him. It’s difficult to underestimate the effect that the hegemony of English has on the uk ‘s relationship with the continental EU

Edited by debtlessmanc
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16 hours ago, jonb2 said:

Dryrot, if you check my posts throughout this thread, you will see I understand how the immigration issue should be taken into account by the government. People are scared and worried by it and nobody listened.

However, on analysis - most of the immigration was under both the New Labour and Tory governments in the last 10 years. They had the powers to vet the incomers and adjust benefit tourism. But they did not do it. Their ears fell off a long time ago. Immigration is not a bad thing - unbridled importation of cheap labour under a neo-liberalist corptocracy is.

I have also made the point the argument about Brexit should be judged on the damage to the UK. Not on picking holes in the EU for all its faults. I admit it is far from perfect and like anything - needs to find its feet - like it took 100 years for the USA to work. Understand there are still problems there too. However there is strength in unity.

I despise the current government and the one before - this is where the ire for 98% of the problems should be directed. As most remainers see the EU conveniently set up as a scapegoat by the shits that have run things here for a long time. If I felt that Brexit was, in any way, make things better for the man in the street - I would not be here arguing.

Thx for your considered reply. I would agree that many of our problems are to do with our own leaders (who we elect...) But FoM is a central part of the Greater EU and Brussels is using legal powers to enforce it. As soon as the 1m+ "migrants" Merkel has invited into Germany get documents, they can move anywhere, including (non-Brexit!) Britain.

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13 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Corruption for one - I spent a whole year trying to deal with an idiot from a Southern European country who was appointed to a job (in my organisation) by a friend of his father (all the same nationality) who has not qualifications for the job and whose almost first action was to get accused of sexual harrasment by a colleague.

So one incident of nepotism leads to the assumption the whole country is corrupt?  Nice work...

12 hours ago, macca13 said:

What’s with the WE.. 

My family have nothing to do with it.. EVER!

The elites were responsible for Slavery, 

The elites are responsible for poverty

The elites are responsible for war and invasions

They own all the land that they whipped peasants and stole many years ago.. that’s why I dislike the royal thieving family.. 

I never got a vote nor was I consulted.. for 1 I never voted for Blair or his government, 2 he never said he would start an illegal war in his manifesto so even those who did vote for him can't be held to account.. we are impotent  

I feel Tony Blair and Bush should personally pay for all this.. Blair has15 BTL properties so he can start by housing 15 families for free

This is called democracy; you vote in a party and they make decisions on your behalf.  If you don't like it, you vote for another party and take your chances.  This is called democracy, and has got us into this shitshoot we're currently in.

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

Read what I wrote - the papers portrayed it as a problem with the uk. Ie other countries did not expel homeless E.U. citizens, they do

You read the papers and deduced this from their article, and then did no background check on it yourself; you're as bad as the papers.

58 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

I might add that, of course we don’t know, but I would say with 90% certainty that the reason the HO did this was advice from those on the ground that when the nice EU migrants who were sleeping rough, many of whom appeared to have just arrived and have no interest in regular work we’re asked to register with their local commune. They said “okay” and then promptly disappeared to another part of London or the uk. Do E.U. laws have anything to say about what to do in this situation? .

BS.  

I am appalled at this governments actions.  Glad the courts in this country have that right too, but luckily, if they said this practice was fine, there's always the ECJ to bring some common sense into the issue.

Homeless people move about, as they are constantly moved on, shipped out to be someone else's problem.  I abhor this lack of basic humanity.  You think folk come here to be purposefully homeless?  Mental.  You suggested you we're an academic at one stage I believe: can you please let us know where so I can make sure my kids don't attend the place.

Edited by HairyOb1
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4 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

So one incident of nepotism leads to the assumption the whole country is corrupt?  Nice work...

This is called democracy; you vote in a party and they make decisions on your behalf.  If you don't like it, you vote for another party and take your chances.  This is called democracy, and has got us into this shitshoot we're currently in.

You read the papers and deduced this from their article, and then did no background check on it yourself; you're as bad as the papers.

BS.  

I am appalled at this governments actions.  Glad the courts in this country have that right too, but luckily, if they said this practice was fine, there's always the ECJ to bring some common sense into the issue.

Homeless people move about, as they are constantly moved on, shipped out to be someone else's problem.  I abhor this lack of basic humanity.  You think folk come here to be purposefully homeless?  Mental.  You suggested you we're an academic at one stage I believe: can you please let us know where so I can make sure my kids don't attend the place.

People do move around to choose where to be homeless - that is why the biggest homeless population of the US of A is in Southern California, which is better place to homeless than (eg) Wisconsin. So you- are wrong, I’m sure you will admit it. 

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