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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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11 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

There is a difference...intergovernmental vs supranational. 

It's really semantics.  If you take a fundamentalist view of sovereignty, devolution is equally as bad as supranational governance - both are just different ways of delegating decision making.

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26 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

It's really semantics.  If you take a fundamentalist view of sovereignty, devolution is equally as bad as supranational governance - both are just different ways of delegating decision making.

That's my view of how, if they want to be consistent. the likes of GD must consider it.

Presumably they will be joining Farrage's new party.

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3 hours ago, IMHAL said:

So.....we hear that Brexit is not about the ecomony (stoopid)..... it's apparently about other things...like sovereignty.

Let Brexiteers tell us what benefits our new found sovereignty  will bring us over the sovereignty we possess right now. Any takers?

giphy.gif

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6 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Any international deal that places obligations on the other party i.e. any international deal. 

Ok, thanks for that.

6 hours ago, IMHAL said:

Ridicule means criticism that has not been countered. Restate the advantages of the 'extra' sovereignty and we can, one way or another put it to bed.

Well you know I’m a fan of natiobalisation and state aid...

6 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

The assaults on personal freedom, over the last 22 years, have destroyed any patriotism I may once have had. The cameras are all in place and the stage is set for the arrival of another, but competent, authoritarian leader to have a field day.

The European Convention on Human Rights and the ECJ have become our safety net.

We aren’t leaving the ECHR.

6 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

There maybe 3000 pages of posts but to date I haven't seen anything that comes close to a coherent and credible vision for a Brexit that will benefit the majority of Britons..

Lots of ridiculous claims that are easy to debunk (or ridicule) but nothing that stands up to any degree of scrutiny.  

   

Do you not consider the UK capable of being independent of the EU? Have we really sunk that low in our national confidence?

6 hours ago, IMHAL said:

That is my understanding.....in any bilateral deal you have to agree to ceed sovereignty...ie give and take...otherwise it ain't bilateral and it an't a deal.

Maybe we should just have unilateral trade deals?......take it or leave...on our terms, we decide what the terms are, we decide if they have been upheld........ you're our bitch or we don't trade with you. Not very appealing in this day and age.

We will regain a huge amount of sovereignty by leaving: and will not need to concede anywhere near as much in future.

5 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

It's really semantics.  If you take a fundamentalist view of sovereignty, devolution is equally as bad as supranational governance - both are just different ways of delegating decision making.

Thumbs up for a USofE!

4 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

That's my view of how, if they want to be consistent. the likes of GD must consider it.

Presumably they will be joining Farrage's new party.

Why would I do that. I’m Lib/Lab.

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1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

45 Days. Tick tock.

Town%20Crier1.jpg?cb=71990b7cd3f6ec21fa8

She is going, don't you worry.

 

Quote

 

Theresa May 'to quit this summer'

The Prime Minister will quit her job in the summer – just weeks after Brexit according to members of her inner circle.

Daily Mail

 

 

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1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

45 Days. Tick tock.

Town%20Crier1.jpg?cb=71990b7cd3f6ec21fa8

Only a Russian troll would delight at an incoming UK recession and splintering of UK. Congratulations brexiters for bringing down your country for benefit of billionaires and Putin, I'm sure the common man will benefit immensely from shitexit 

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9 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Bilateral free trade without any loss of sovereignty, territory, or autonomy.

Lol UK won't be getting a free trade deal from EU without 

* those billions UK committed to being paid upfront 

* NI being in single market with border in Irish Sea and a border poll 

* rights for all EU citizens to live and work in UK 

* decolonisation of Gibraltar 

 

It will be the easiest trade deal ever I'm sure you will tell us next 

Edited by yelims

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2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Ok, thanks for that.

Well you know I’m a fan of natiobalisation and state aid...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation. So it ain't necessarily so!!!

We aren’t leaving the ECHR.

Do you not consider the UK capable of being independent of the EU? Have we really sunk that low in our national confidence?

We will regain a huge amount of sovereignty by leaving: and will not need to concede anywhere near as much in future.

See the link above if nationalisation is your main aim. Also, there are WTO rules that you will need to abide by anyway that are restrictive. The question remains -----> what are the extra tangible benefits????

Thumbs up for a USofE!

Why would I do that. I’m Lib/Lab.

See link above..the question remains....what are the benefits of this 'extra' sovereignty?

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11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Have you met many leavers? 

GD's graph shows pretty clearly where that £1.500 estimate comes from. It may not all be down to Brexit but given the unexpected uptick in the world economy in global growth that occurred during 2017 you could equally argue that the Brexit effect was more than £1,500. 

Of course you are joking.

I quoted the authors of the report themselves saying, in effect, that they did not know how much of the £1500 was due to Brexit. Not me. Them. It is they who have made an assumption.Is it 5% of the effect due to Brexit; or 95%? I don't know - and neither do they.

They have made an assumption and the definition of assumption is the adoption of a position when you don't have the facts.

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56 minutes ago, rollover said:

She is going, don't you worry.

Tories may have found a way out of their own mess.

Put May in charge, ostensibly a remain supporter but really an authoritarian anti-immigrant type. She negotiates a deal that limits the downsides of leave the EU but still ties us in to regulatory alignment and ends FOM (which before the smokescreens went up and after they come down is what 95% of brexit voters really care about).

Deal passes, May resigns, ultras swoop in and blame her for messing up what could have been a glorious exit. Now is not the time to change suddenly though, the country has had enough of for the moment. People grumble for a bit then remember they never cared about EU laws or trade deals in the first place and the forins can no longer move near them. Tory party saved, country worse than before.

Or

Deal doesn't pass, May resigns, ultras swoop in and blame her for messing up what could have been a glorious exit with the best deal in history for mighty blighty if only she'd been firmer. You must trust a proper brexiter now to make the best of the situation. Don't vote for the chaos of Corbyn, just think how much worse he'll be, what we need now is stability (smirking in Tory). Never mind, we're at no deal now, time to make the best of it and all those smoke screens you put up about trade deals and EU laws means the narrative is set and now we are out. Tory party saved, country much worse off.

 

Edited by dugsbody

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16 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

See link above..the question remains....what are the benefits of this 'extra' sovereignty?

"The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. ... All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

Sovereignty is the right of self determination. An antonym is submission.

Ask people if they would prefer self determination or submission. When you've done that report back on the answers. I predict that most will choose self determination and will not only choose it but regard it as most precious.

If you cannot see the "tangible" benefits of sovereignty then you are already a slave. 

 

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12 minutes ago, crouch said:

"The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. ... All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

Sovereignty is the right of self determination. An antonym is submission.

Ask people if they would prefer self determination or submission. When you've done that report back on the answers. I predict that most will choose self determination and will not only choose it but regard it as most precious.

If you cannot see the "tangible" benefits of sovereignty then you are already a slave.

The problem is that some people are using the fact that some things are fundamentally unmeasurable as an attempt at dismissing their importance (leading to the frequent accusation that they're only interested in economic matters and nothing else, because at least they're measurable). There's a quote (often but probably wrongly attributed to Einstein) - "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured." This may sound sappy but for example love is very important to a good life, but certainly can't be measured and has no clear tangible material benefit.

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1 minute ago, Riedquat said:

The problem is that some people are using the fact that some things are fundamentally unmeasurable as an attempt at dismissing their importance (leading to the frequent accusation that they're only interested in economic matters and nothing else, because at least they're measurable). There's a quote (often but probably wrongly attributed to Einstein) - "Not everything that can be measured matters, and not everything that matters can be measured." This may sound sappy but for example love is very important to a good life, but certainly can't be measured and has no clear tangible material benefit.

Yes you are right here. Of course it is usually the unmeasureable things that are the most valuable. Freedom is unmeasureable

It is part of the mindset that sees Brexit as only about economics; if it reduces long term GDP growth by 0.1% then it's bad.

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14 minutes ago, crouch said:

"The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. ... All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

Sovereignty is the right of self determination. An antonym is submission.

Ask people if they would prefer self determination or submission. When you've done that report back on the answers. I predict that most will choose self determination and will not only choose it but regard it as most precious.

If you cannot see the "tangible" benefits of sovereignty then you are already a slave. 

 

All we have to do now is define what we mean by 'peoples'. Clearly the 'peoples' of Northern England have a very different view of sovereignty and how best to pursue their own economic, social and cultural development than the 'peoples' of Greater London, even though the 'peoples' of Greater London generate most of the national income.

And how about we change the word submission for the word community and try asking that question again?

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12 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

46 days away from the start of our golden age 😉

" The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions within a society must be completely destroyed or discarded and a new revolutionary culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All history of a nation or people before Year Zero is deemed largely irrelevant, as it will ideally be purged and replaced from the ground up. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)

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1 hour ago, yelims said:

Only a Russian troll would delight at an incoming UK recession and splintering of UK. Congratulations brexiters for bringing down your country for benefit of billionaires and Putin, I'm sure the common man will benefit immensely from shitexit 

Only an odious character would delight in such matters. Utterly pathetic and beyond contempt. 

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I am sure people of Scotland would love to hear more about self determination /s and not have to suck England's balls to get a stab at freedom 

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1 minute ago, yelims said:

I am sure people of Scotland would love to hear more about self determination /s and not have to suck England's balls to get a stab at freedom 

I can see Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Gibraltar going their own way. Apart from ccc I am pretty sure that they all do not like being dictated to by little englander Tory filth. 

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10 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

Post hard Brexit, the UK will most likely implement a version of Mrs May's deal..in the form of an association agreement..

If they do a trade deal, which many leavers don't want, we'll be dictated to.

Bend over.

But trade is money, therefore irrelevant. Leavers want Sakoku. An isolated island with no contact with the outside world.

 

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A very interesting article if you've got twenty minutes to spare:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/02/11/suddenly-europe-open-question-nazi-eu.html

At the moment I'm reading:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tainted-Source-Undemocratic-Origins-European-ebook/dp/B01F3Z2J5U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549963910&sr=8-1&keywords=the+tainted+source

Laughland identifies the idea of a Großraumwirtschaft (large economic area) as a Nazi idea to bring the continent under German control. In some ways this echos the 19th century zollverein in Bismarck's time.

The UK has historically been in favour of a balance of power in Europe to prevent hegemony. The German notion of a unified Europe goes back at least to the Holy Roman Empire.

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4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

even though the 'peoples' of Greater London generate most of the national income.

I would beg to differ. London contains the bulk of parasitical class that give the appearance of generating income. Always has.

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9 hours ago, zugzwang said:

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Hard Power. 👊

Gavin-Williamson-1245707.jpg

Ah but

Leavers will see this and their hearts will jump

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-defence-idUSKCN1Q000J

 

Remainers will see this and know the government is lying again

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/government-refusing-tackle-defence-budget-13937166

 

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