OnionTerror Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Good faith is a condition. we can revoke it unconditionally. I'd imagine that IF it were to be revoked, A50 within the tfeu would be rewritten with all 28 states in mind to determine what would happen for any other future cases.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Would revoking it only to invoke it a little later be taken as evidence of not being in good faith (I'd have thought so)? GD is saying the good faith requirement, that came with the opinion piece, is no more after this judgement came out. However, the revocation brings an end to leaving. Parliament would have to vote to slap in Article 50 again, which ain't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 hours ago, kzb said: Workers' and women's rights 1. EU workers’ rights laws are lower than UK’s UK statutory paid holiday entitlement is 28 days, in EU only 20 days National Minimum Wage Act 1998 – there's no EU minimum wage law Maternity leave – UK: 52 weeks, EU: 14 weeks Under EU laws, the British people's rights would decrease Untrue. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073511/Workers-UK-fewest-public-holidays-Europe-generous-statutory-holiday-entitlement.html we have one of the lowest combined holiday entitlements in the world. Almost all EU countries are higher in terms of this. There are only 6 member states in the EU without a minimum wage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_minimum_wage only 3 of those sit below us on the human development index, with 3 significantly higher than us. The UK provides for 6 weeks at 90% of AWE, then a maximum £145.18, hardly generous. Someone else already rubbished this point earlier. Baseless conjecture. We are already covered by EU law, so why is the PM making a big deal about retaining rights if its so great outside? Why do we get asked to opt out of the working time directive? 5 hours ago, kzb said: 2. UK established workers’ rights long before EU “Protection against sex, race and disability discrimination in the UK pre-dated EU law” (from TUC report) Women’s rights: Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and Divorce Reform Act were all passed before UK even joined EU Sex Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act – no EU involvement EU’s Posted Workers Directive means EU workers can be employed in UK for fraction of the cost of UK workers Not relevant. We are talking about now, not the past. Not relevant. We are talking about now, not the past. Not relevant. We are talking about now, not the past. Untrue. The posted worker has to have the same the exact same rights as a native (holiday, maternity, minimum wage, etc) see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posted_Workers_Directive_1996 5 hours ago, kzb said: 3. EU healthcare rights are way below UK standards EU has no free healthcare requirement – most people pay for top-up private insurance In France it costs over £25 just for 5 minutes with your GP, paid at the time In many countries you pay, and get only partially reimbursed later With the UK’s NHS, treatment is free at the point of delivery True, I wonder how long this will last when the salivating yanks get their hands on the NHS as a result of the trade deal we will be begging for. Answer : Not long. 5 hours ago, kzb said: 4. Finally, workers’ rights are only relevant if you have work In the Eurozone, austerity has taken the jobs of millions of workers You’re nearly twice as likely to be out of work in the Eurozone An entire young generation across southern Europe has been devastated by 30-50% unemployment for years Partially true, although our unemployment figures are fudged with zhc and "forced" labour beyond all recognition. I don't think this is something to celebrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Chunketh said: Untrue. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073511/Workers-UK-fewest-public-holidays-Europe-generous-statutory-holiday-entitlement.html we have one of the lowest combined holiday entitlements in the world. Almost all EU countries are higher in terms of this. (1) There are only 6 member states in the EU without a minimum wage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_minimum_wage only 3 of those sit below us on the human development index, with 3 significantly higher than us. <EDIT> It wasn't about this. We are talking about the EU directed minimum conditions, which are generally poorer than under UK legislation. Yes the majority of EU countries also exceed these minimum conditions, but that is not the point. The point was about people apparently believing the only thing saving them from slavery is the EU. That cannot be true if the EU minima are worse than UK legislation minima. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 3 hours ago, ****-eyed octopus said: And you would say that wouldn't you. What is wrong with the article? It's the sort of fodder that appears on the RT site all the time. I am the first to admit that the EU has problems. But sniping at the EU, rather than face up to the problems we have here makes me dismiss as merely fuel to the fire. More distraction from the real problems caused by the Tories. I thought Brexit was to raise a finger to the elites. Yet unHerd is funded by a wealthy hedge fund boss, a leaver, who has no contribution to make to the well-being of the UK. Unless you think hedge funds are our new future after Brexit? So vested interests. It confirms my view that there are a lot of very wealthy people that will do very well out of Brexit. On the other hand, we, the people, will burn out watching the decline and dismemberment of everything we've achieved in the last couple of centuries. We will also know we had a hand in it. Well half of us anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, kzb said: It wasn't about this. We are talking about the EU directed minimum conditions, which are generally poorer than under UK legislation. Yes the majority of EU countries also exceed these minimum conditions, but that is not the point. The point was about people apparently believing the only thing saving them from slavery is the EU. That cannot be true if the EU minima are worse than UK legislation minima. Brexit is to rid the UK of workers regulation, always has been. https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/brexit-and-your-rights-work-–-why-you-should-be-worried https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-david-davis-thatcher-deregulation-free-trade-tory-party-conservatives-a8219576.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-worker-rights-impact-assessment-eu-withdrawal-leaked-theresa-may-a8201176.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Brexit is to rid the UK of workers regulation, always has been. https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/brexit-and-your-rights-work-–-why-you-should-be-worried https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-david-davis-thatcher-deregulation-free-trade-tory-party-conservatives-a8219576.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-worker-rights-impact-assessment-eu-withdrawal-leaked-theresa-may-a8201176.html Access to an infinite pool of workers, posted workers etc have undermined our conditions, especially at the bottom end. It's supply and demand that is the key to being appreciated I am afraid. Second, "hard won" rights is correct. They were won by previous generations in unions and the old Labour movement. Not by the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Sounds about right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, kzb said: Access to an infinite pool of workers, posted workers etc have undermined our conditions, especially at the bottom end. It's supply and demand that is the key to being appreciated I am afraid. Second, "hard won" rights is correct. They were won by previous generations in unions and the old Labour movement. Not by the EU. The Tories are in power, not Labour. The Tories will win the next election thanks to Brexit being a majority right wing idea. Most EU governments are not as right wing as the Tories. Ergo, worker's rights will go. The fact that May has not agreed to rule out change to workers rights should be telling. The idea is to lure companies here on the promise of a low wage workforce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/households-have-taken-a-1500-hit-since-eu-referendum-report-finds-a4062976.html Brexit already cost each family 1500 pounds, congratulations, hope it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, yelims said: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/households-have-taken-a-1500-hit-since-eu-referendum-report-finds-a4062976.html Brexit already cost each family 1500 pounds, congratulations, hope it's worth it. Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, yelims said: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/households-have-taken-a-1500-hit-since-eu-referendum-report-finds-a4062976.html Brexit already cost each family 1500 pounds, congratulations, hope it's worth it. "The report acknowledges that "no-one can say definitely how much of that lost income is exclusively down to the Brexit effect but it's hard not to conclude that Brexit must be the single biggest factor". So you assume what you cannot demonstrate. And some people are naive enough to actually believe this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, kzb said: Access to an infinite pool of workers, posted workers etc have undermined our conditions, especially at the bottom end. It's supply and demand that is the key to being appreciated I am afraid. Exactly right ...Labour's position in thinking that workers will be adequately protected by regulations is naive...and the evidence supports this as conditions get worse as supply of labour increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, crouch said: "The report acknowledges that "no-one can say definitely how much of that lost income is exclusively down to the Brexit effect but it's hard not to conclude that Brexit must be the single biggest factor". So you assume what you cannot demonstrate. And some people are naive enough to actually believe this stuff. And others are naïve enough to dismiss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: And others are naïve enough to dismiss it. The word is traitorous, brexiters will do more damage than terrorism ever managed, and for what? Blue passports printed in France? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: And others are naïve enough to dismiss it. It is disingenuous. The headline clearly implies that the full loss is due to Brexit whereas the truth is in my quote. You can accept with no reason; to dismiss usually needs a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Nonsense. Reminds me of that spoof you tube video during the Referendum campaign - with 'Claire Voyant from the highly respected independent EU funded think tank Vested (Interests) announcing that following a survey of eight wealthy businessmen every hard working family in the UK would be £4.5 million a year worse off' if we voted to leave the EU. Can't say I have noticed I am £1,500 worse off - I have had a promotion at work since we voted to leave so I am better off! These fictional numbers based on meaningless averages and dubious data didn't work then either. Still good to sea the usual measured responses on here 'Brexiters will do more damage than terrorism ever managed?? Edited February 11, 2019 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, jonb2 said: Brexit is to rid the UK of workers regulation, always has been. https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/brexit-and-your-rights-work-–-why-you-should-be-worried https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-david-davis-thatcher-deregulation-free-trade-tory-party-conservatives-a8219576.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-worker-rights-impact-assessment-eu-withdrawal-leaked-theresa-may-a8201176.html Don't forget about ridding us of the NHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTINX9 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Chunketh said: Don't forget about ridding us of the NHS. Yes - that has always been Dennis Skinner and Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Benn's secret plan - after all they all voted against the EU/EEC at every opportunity during their political careers (well until June 2016 in Corbyn's case!). The EU didn't invent the NHS - the UK did as an independent country. Edited February 11, 2019 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 minute ago, MARTINX9 said: Yes - that has always been Dennis Skinner and Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Benn's secret plan - after all they all voted against the EU/EEC at every opportunity during their political careers (well until June 2016 in Corbyn's case!). We don't have a Labour government. By the time they achieve power again it will be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: Reminds me of that spoof you tube video during the Referendum campaign - with 'Claire Voyant from the highly respected independent EU funded think tank Vested (Interests) announcing that following a survey of eight wealthy businessmen every hard working family in the UK would be £4.5 million a year worse off' if we voted to leave the EU. Can't say I have noticed I am £1,500 worse off - I have had a promotion at work since we voted to leave so I am better off! These fictional numbers based on meaningless averages and dubious data didn't work then either. Still good to sea the usual measured responses on here 'Brexiters will do more damage than terrorism ever managed?? Exactly. I’ve raked it in the last couple of years; most I’ve ever earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Exactly. I’ve raked it in the last couple of years; most I’ve ever earned. By eye, to me that graph says in the 2.5yrs before the referendum real wage growth was around 5% and in the 2.5yrs since the referendum it was about 0%. In the run up to the referendum all the forecasts were that the UK was on a roll. I remember one even saying it was the start of a golden decade for us, sadly it didn't turn out that way. I wonder why that was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Exactly. I’ve raked it in the last couple of years; most I’ve ever earned. Brexshit hasn't happened yet. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: It is disingenuous. The headline clearly implies that the full loss is due to Brexit whereas the truth is in my quote. You can accept with no reason; to dismiss usually needs a reason. Have you met many leavers? GD's graph shows pretty clearly where that £1.500 estimate comes from. It may not all be down to Brexit but given the unexpected uptick in the world economy in global growth that occurred during 2017 you could equally argue that the Brexit effect was more than £1,500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: By eye, to me that graph says in the 2.5yrs before the referendum real wage growth was around 5% and in the 2.5yrs since the referendum it was about 0%. In the run up to the referendum all the forecasts were that the UK was on a roll. I remember one even saying it was the start of a golden decade for us, sadly it didn't turn out that way. I wonder why that was. 46 days away from the start of our golden age ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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