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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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2 hours ago, crouch said:

Who has said there won't be problems? Not me. Some businesses will be affected severely, including yours from the sound of it. Many won't.

Also you are conflating the Brexit decision in principle with the subsequent incompetence, which is staggering and undeniable. Most of your post details incompetence and you want to elide that with the decision in principle. You can't.

Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved.  They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses.

Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize.

The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU.  The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own.

I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit.

Edited by Exiled Canadian

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13 minutes ago, crouch said:

No most Leavers voted on sovereignty and immigration not economics.

I don't think they were interested in achieving "sovereignty pure" - whatever that means, just leaving the EU.

More immigration from non-EU countries. More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter. Which obviously most leavers support now that they have their sovereignty.

So what is Brexit for?

Sovereignty means having control. We have no control. The government does whatever it wants. The EU has done little to feck up our dire domestic politics. Immigration will go up as long as the corporations want it too. More now as it will be a even lower wage economy for the vast majority or plainly jobless for a lifetime - passing this legacy on to their offspring and their kids too. So the low-waged will be competing even more. But without the social safety net. Those that will benefit from wage inflation are lucky. But as businesses fold or leave, they will find their opportunities decrease too.

The chances of achieving the Nirvana you said you want are distant. It will take money. Leavers don't want money, don't care about it - so it's not going to happen. We will all have to live in the filling sewer forever.

Where's the money going to come from for change ?????

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17 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU.

We have (until  the end of March anyhow) some pretty good trade agreements with 27 European countries, Japan, Canada and others.  Apparently it's sensible to unilaterally pull out of these so that, wait for it......we can negotiate some trade deals.

So the people who are losing their jobs are trying to sabotage Brexit - is that really what you meant?

Edited by Exiled Canadian

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13 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU.

Who do you have in mind?? Chris Grayling? Liam Fox? Johnson the diplomat? Priti Patel? Clever David Davis? The haunted pencil?

There is nobody.

It's not sabotage, it's realism. Pure and simple.

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41 minutes ago, crouch said:

No most Leavers voted on sovereignty and immigration not economics.

I don't think they were interested in achieving "sovereignty pure" - whatever that means, just leaving the EU.

Most voters don't have a clue what sovereignty realy means....both remain and leave....other than it can be used to stop FOM. 

Most voters don't realise that FOM can be curtailed by using the existing mechanisms at our disposal.

Most voters...both leave and remain will understand the financial impact when it hits them...100% certain......and they will be totally narked.

And 99.999% of voters don't give a flying fart about your prophecy of eventual EU armagedon......

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27 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved.  They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses.

Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize.

The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU.  The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own.

I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit.

The "intellectually lazy" campaign had nothing to do with this. It is for the government to set the framework and for businesses to work within this. The fact that the government has been incompetent has created many of these issues. To ask for detailed plans at the time of the referendum which is what you imply - and before the EU has agreed to anything is not merely unreasonable; it is quite absurd.

The main source of your problems is not the decision' it is government. 

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26 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

More immigration from non-EU countries. More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter. Which obviously most leavers support now that they have their sovereignty.

So what is Brexit for?

Sovereignty means having control. We have no control. The government does whatever it wants. The EU has done little to feck up our dire domestic politics. Immigration will go up as long as the corporations want it too. More now as it will be a even lower wage economy for the vast majority or plainly jobless for a lifetime - passing this legacy on to their offspring and their kids too. So the low-waged will be competing even more. But without the social safety net. Those that will benefit from wage inflation are lucky. But as businesses fold or leave, they will find their opportunities decrease too.

The chances of achieving the Nirvana you said you want are distant. It will take money. Leavers don't want money, don't care about it - so it's not going to happen. We will all have to live in the filling sewer forever.

Where's the money going to come from for change ?????

"More immigration from non-EU countries"

Probably; but we will control it which we cannot do with FOM.

"More unwanted crap like HS2, austerity, NHS privatisation and the snooper's charter."

HS2 should be cancelled; austerity should never have been introduced; NHS privatisation - as someone who is being treated well for prostate cancer I hardly think so; snoopers charter : an unacceptable invasion of privacy.

Nirvana? I don't think so; just a reasonable improvement in things.

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13 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Most voters don't have a clue what sovereignty realy means....both remain and leave....other than it can be used to stop FOM. 

Most voters don't realise that FOM can be curtailed by using the existing mechanisms at our disposal.

Most voters...both leave and remain will understand the financial impact when it hits them...100% certain......and they will be totally narked.

And 99.999% of voters don't give a flying fart about your prophecy of eventual EU armagedon......

You seem to know an awful lot about voters, far more than I do. You'll forgive me if I'm somewhat sceptical.

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12 minutes ago, crouch said:

The "intellectually lazy" campaign had nothing to do with this. It is for the government to set the framework and for businesses to work within this. The fact that the government has been incompetent has created many of these issues. To ask for detailed plans at the time of the referendum which is what you imply - and before the EU has agreed to anything is not merely unreasonable; it is quite absurd.

The main source of your problems is not the decision' it is government. 

Sorry - that's utter piffle.

The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU.  It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done.  They didn't.

The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right.  The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government..

I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states in two years.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote.

 

Edited by Exiled Canadian

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50 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

Exactly, so anyone losing their jobs need to stop blaming "Brexit" and start voting for politicians that are going to get out there and negotiate good trade deals for the UK, instead of trying to sabotage Brexit on behalf of the EU.

Leavers should lose their jobs first. It’s what they voted for.  

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36 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

We have (until  the end of March anyhow) some pretty good trade agreements with 27 European countries, Japan, Canada and others.  Apparently it's sensible to unilaterally pull out of these so that, wait for it......we can negotiate some trade deals.

So the people who are losing their jobs are trying to sabotage Brexit - is that really what you meant?

It was pretty clear what I meant, you seem to be adopting the EU tactic of just ignoring the political choices of a population and using economic threats to get them to just forget that they voted to leave the EU (for a lot of reasons not related to trade deals)

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52 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

Really - perhaps someone who was proposing Brexit should have set out how the difficulties I allude to (and the similar ones which impact other industries) could be resolved.  They didn't, instead choosing to scream "PROJECT FEAR" every time concerns were raised about what decoupling from the EU would mean for many businesses.

Your position seems to be that its up to businesses to resolve the mess that the ill thought out and intellectually lazy Brexit campaign has dumped on their desks and that if people lose their jobs from the resulting chaos that's unavoidable "collateral damage" in your pursuit of some glorious, yet undefined, prize.

The sad fact is that my business won't suffer - we'll just shift production into the EU.  The suffering will be felt by the people made redundant as a result - through no fault of their own.

I can only assume that you are fortunate enough not to face losing your livelihood as a result of Brexit.

I would hope that for any subsequent job losses you will be be removing leave voters first. It’s what they voted for. 

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1 minute ago, dances with sheeple said:

It was pretty clear what I meant, you seem to be adopting the EU tactic of just ignoring the political choices of a population and using economic threats to get them to just forget that they voted to leave the EU (for a lot of reasons not related to trade deals)

It's not a threat - it's the reality of what will happen.  People will lose their jobs.  Do you think that they voted to lose their jobs?

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1 minute ago, Exiled Canadian said:

Sorry - that's utter piffle.

The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU.  It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done.  They didn't.

The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right.  The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government..

I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote.

 

So what you're saying is that it's impossible to leave the EU. Not an argument that'll gain much traction with anyone who has any pride in the UK as an independent nation.

It's rather like being told you mustn't vote Labour because of the financial implications. 

All I can say is that I weighed up the likely financial penalty against the improvement in national self-determination & drew my own conclusions. I think most voters did that.

 

 

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1 minute ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

I would hope that for any subsequent job losses you will be be removing leave voters first. It’s what they voted for. 

I'm not sure that would be legal.  I suppose we could ask for brexit supporting volunteers happy to lay down their livelihoods as a sacrifice for the golden nirvana that awaits outside of EU membership - I wonder if we'd get any takers. 

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4 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

Sorry - that's utter piffle.

The Brexit side in the referendum proposed we leave the EU.  It was incumbent upon them to say how it could be done.  They didn't.

The Remaininers said it would be a nightmare and are being proved right.  The issues have been created by the decision to leave the EU, not by the current government..

I'm not sure that any government could have untangled 40 years of close co-operation in many different areas of policy in a way satisfactory to both the UK and 27 EU member states in two years.... this chaos is a direct result of Brexit and was easily foreseeable at the time of the vote.

 

I'm afraid you're stating the obvious: if we had not decided to leave the EU we would not have had these problems. But the problems are largely those relating to government incompetence notwithstanding the difficulty of the task.

Any scheme to leave would have to be discussed with the EU and this was hardly possible before the referendum. You didn't like the result but your criticisms are not only largely unreasonable but actually absurd.

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46 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Who do you have in mind?? Chris Grayling? Liam Fox? Johnson the diplomat? Priti Patel? Clever David Davis? The haunted pencil?

There is nobody.

It's not sabotage, it's realism. Pure and simple.

I will take Farage over most of them, and will be voting for his new party at the first opportunity.

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3 minutes ago, dances with sheeple said:

How do you know what will happen?

I know what the contingency plans are in the business that faces the issues I set out earlier.  They involve UK redundancies to move production to the EU.  We hope to avoid this but unless we can demonstrate to our EU customers that the regulatory regime post Brexit will not put the final certification of their products at risk it's the route we'll have to take.

It strikes me as unlikely we are the only business in this position.

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29 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Most voters don't have a clue what sovereignty realy means....both remain and leave....other than it can be used to stop FOM. 

Most voters don't realise that FOM can be curtailed by using the existing mechanisms at our disposal.

Most voters...both leave and remain will understand the financial impact when it hits them...100% certain......and they will be totally narked.

And 99.999% of voters don't give a flying fart about your prophecy of eventual EU armagedon......

Right, but they didn`t have the means to stop politicians from both main parties just ignoring this ability, so they pulled the big brake on the bus labelled Brexit. If Farage has a new party up and running and Westminster and the devolved parliaments are where the buck stops (No more "A bigger EU made us do it!" excuses) then politicians are on notice that if they get it wrong again on immigration then a sizeable number of votes are going to go away, then they will start paying more attention IMO.

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9 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

So what you're saying is that it's impossible to leave the EU. Not an argument that'll gain much traction with anyone who has any pride in the UK as an independent nation.

It's rather like being told you mustn't vote Labour because of the financial implications. 

All I can say is that I weighed up the likely financial penalty against the improvement in national self-determination & drew my own conclusions. I think most voters did that.

 

 

Not impossible - but likely to cause massive economic damage and disruption.

I am interested to know where you see the improvement in national self determination?

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  • The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:   325 members have voted

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic


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