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Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

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2 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

thehowler: are there any particular posts or arguments you'd like to draw my attention to?

Nope, highYield has just about summed it up.

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2 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Nope, highYield has just about summed it up.

He said you had hundreds of posts. I'm asking you which ones!

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5 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

If it were a simple vote, for example a referendum on whether alcohol should be banned and the majority vote to ban alcohol, then fine it would be undemocratic of you to continue to drink alcohol. But this is complicated. It requires co-operation from people who oppose Leaving. People are under no obligation to support Brexit. If their constituents oppose it, that's a good reason for MPs to oppose it. Even if their constituents oppose it, they can vote against it if they don't agree with their assessments of the impact.

Hold yer hosses. I respect the majority vote, but it doesn't mean I have to think the way the majority does. thehowler abides. But I'd be the first down the speakeasy, sorry if that strikes you as morally repugnant.

I think it would be disastrous - more disastrous than leaving the EU/27 - for the UK to ignore the vote.

9 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

It seems if we want to leave we can either have BRINO or no deal both of which are incredibly unpopular

Are you saying May's deal is BRINO? If so, I disagree. Grieve et al are fighting desperately to stop it as it means we'll be out of the EU/27.

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6 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

There is no reason to have to support the winning side if you disagree with it. Telling us to suck it up will have no traction whatsoever.

So leave won, ok then, let's see exactly what they do with it. We are perfectly entitled to carry on banging the EU drum and making an argument to rejoin.

I can't and won't get behind a decision that I regard as stupid and that does nothing but serve the rich and entitled.

Very unfair. thehowler, as one of the most reasonable posters on here (IMO) has never told anyone else to do anything. 

You can read his posts by clicking on his user name. 

Or by having spent a lot of time on this thread, following the debate.

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11 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

s there a way of going through your posts rather than having to trawl through the entire thread? I think when I click on someone's profile I can only see a few recent posts.

I repeat myself so often there's no need. And there are months left to go.

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1 minute ago, thehowler said:

 

Are you saying May's deal is BRINO? If so, I disagree. Grieve et al are fighting desperately to stop it as it means we'll be out of the EU/27.

Out, yes, but subservient to.

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11 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

So leave won, ok then, let's see exactly what they do with it. We are perfectly entitled to carry on banging the EU drum and making an argument to rejoin.

I can't and won't get behind a decision that I regard as stupid and that does nothing but serve the rich and entitled.

Bravo, that's the spirit! Enact the vote, move on, best possible outcome, campaign to rejoin if you believe in the EU/27 projekt.

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Can we do a graph of angry remainers who suddenly feel the need to participate in this thread, without having a clue about who has said what?

I predict a big spike early next week.

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1 minute ago, thehowler said:

Hold yer hosses. I respect the majority vote, but it doesn't mean I have to think the way the majority does. thehowler abides. But I'd be the first down the speakeasy, sorry if that strikes you as morally repugnant.

Whether it's morally repugnant is a different question. I think most people would continue to drink alcohol if they weren't scared of getting caught. The point is that a ban on alcohol is simple. Leaving the EU isn't.

 

4 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Are you saying May's deal is BRINO? If so, I disagree. Grieve et al are fighting desperately to stop it as it means we'll be out of the EU/27.

OK, but people generally seem upset that it's a betrayal. Maybe Labour's proposed Brexit is BRINO. I think the key point is the 38% Leavers are presumably split between no deal, May's deal and alternatives. We can either try to find out what people want, leave with no deal, or we can announce that it's interminable and leave with May's deal, or we can announce that it's interminable and remain. I think May's deal is the worst of those four options.

All this stuff about: "we have to respect the referendum... or else." I'd like to know what that's based on. The government has admitted that no deal is a possibility and there may be riots when the food runs out etc. If we can prepare for riots in a no deal, can't we also prepare for riots when we remain? If people take to the streets protesting "Leave means leave" can't we punish them as people were punished for stealing bottled water?

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1 hour ago, thehowler said:

You're either going to suck up the referendum result or you're not. Choice is yours. But if you're a democrat, suck it up.

The most democratic choice is a no-deal, as according to leavers, this is what they voted for.

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23 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

There is no reason to have to support the winning side if you disagree with it. Telling us to suck it up will have no traction whatsoever.

So leave won, ok then, let's see exactly what they do with it. We are perfectly entitled to carry on banging the EU drum and making an argument to rejoin.

I can't and won't get behind a decision that I regard as stupid and that does nothing but serve the rich and entitled.

I think you mean an argument not to leave. If your already arguing to rejoin later without having left that means your advocating we leave first.

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3 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

The most democratic choice is a no-deal, as according to leavers, this is what they voted for.

If the referendum takes primacy over parliamentary democracy that's what we should do.

If it's the other way round, who knows?! I suppose we may find out soon.

Additionally there's the possibility the electorate's view has shifted, especially as many have turned 18 or died since the referendum.

Many different approaches could be justified democratically.

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4 minutes ago, highYield said:

Tell that to the Prohibition.

On October 28, 1919, Congress passed enabling legislation, known as the Volstead Act, to enforce the Eighteenth Amendment when it went into effect in 1920.

The ratification of the 18th Amendment was completed on January 16th, 1919 and would take effect on January 17th, 1920.

They didn't have a referendum, but once it was voted it wasn't that complicated. They didn't have to make concessions with foreign governments or anything. It was basically a binary choice and leaving the EU isn't.

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28 minutes ago, highYield said:

Very unfair. thehowler, as one of the most reasonable posters on here (IMO) has never told anyone else to do anything. 

You can read his posts by clicking on his user name. 

Or by having spent a lot of time on this thread, following the debate.

It was not a criticism of him, each to their own. Which was kind of my point. 

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4 hours ago, Riedquat said:

And from some numbers I just found on Wikipedia China releases more per capita than the UK too - and that was on 2014 figures, AFAIK the UK's number has reduced since then. The UK's pretty good on a per capita level for a developed country, although France is significantly better (I assume due to using lots of nuclear).

That said there's an argument that we're not really all that great - we've just outsourced ours to China, in the same way we've not got rid of cheap labour underpinning our economy, we've just outsourced that to China too.

Yes I know, as has much of the west.

But don't blame me for that.  Not guilty.  I never consented to it and neither did 99% of the population.  Don't expect me to pay more energy taxes because they (big business) have exported our jobs chasing cheap energy. 

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2 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

If the referendum takes primacy over parliamentary democracy that's what we should do.

If it's the other way round, who knows?! I suppose we may find out soon.

Additionally there's the possibility the electorate's view has shifted, especially as many have turned 18 or died since the referendum.

Many different approaches could be justified democratically.

We know already that the Brexit opinion poll was not, legally, a referendum.

There is no place within our current representative democracy for referendums - they simply do not, and cannot, exist within our unwritten constitution.

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8 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

If the referendum takes primacy over parliamentary democracy that's what we should do.

If it's the other way round, who knows?! I suppose we may find out soon.

Additionally there's the possibility the electorate's view has shifted, especially as many have turned 18 or died since the referendum.

Many different approaches could be justified democratically.

In March 2016, the Govt published this...

Alternatives to membership: possible models for the United Kingdom outside the European Union

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf

Did Cameron have the right to automatically assume that we should leave the SM during the referendum "campaign"?

Edited by Dave Beans

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1 hour ago, onlooker said:

Daily Mail is a militantly Remainer paper now, under Geordie Greg. It is not impartial, but how can Brexit affect the Japanese stockmarket? It has lost c.2% like all the others. Also the UK market has gone down the same as the French and German markets, yet Remainers tell us that the EU will not be affected by our departure, so why are they down the same as the UK.

Nothing to do with Brexit, and thinking people and journalists should be able to work that out.

PS Paris and Frankfurt now down significantly more than UK stockmarkets. Brexit? My sides are splitting.

Edited by onlooker
spelling

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13 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

I think you mean an argument not to leave. If your already arguing to rejoin later without having left that means your advocating we leave first.

I am in two minds over this.

One side says yes, lets leave with no deal and shine the light of reality on the situation. It might speed up the recognition that people have been duped.

The other side says no, fight it every step of the way.

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8 minutes ago, Kosmin said:

If the referendum takes primacy over parliamentary democracy that's what we should do.

If it's the other way round, who knows?! I suppose we may find out soon.

Additionally there's the possibility the electorate's view has shifted, especially as many have turned 18 or died since the referendum.

Many different approaches could be justified democratically.

Clearly it was the other way round, i.e a non binding advisory referendum.

Hence the pickle we are in. Everything else you say is also true. It then boils down to what you think is the best way forward for the country. And it doesn't appear that parliament has a solution to that quandary.

 

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1 minute ago, Kosmin said:

If the referendum takes primacy over parliamentary democracy that's what we should do.

If it's the other way round, who knows?! I suppose we may find out soon.

Additionally there's the possibility the electorate's view has shifted, especially as many have turned 18 or died since the referendum.

Many different approaches could be justified democratically.

This is the point Kosmin.

Fundamentally, when is democracy not democracy? An argument to forgive manipulation of the argument nullifies any claim to democracy. 'The vote' is tainted by undelivered promises, dark money and emotion boiling psych-ops.

In my mind, this makes an absolute mockery of the claim it's undemocratic to review people's opinion now they know more of the truth. But the programming of leavers' minds will cry betrayal. So as people say, if leavers lose, they will kick up a fuss and some will get more ukippy

Remember the counter-argument. If we let the manipulators win and confirm there is no penalty, they will ramp up their non-democratic control and prodding of our people - eventually leading to Orwell in 3D.

There is a political and economic cancer afflicting the country. It needs fighting and destroying. I agree that remain is the sane thing to do. But my continued hunch is the best cure to all this shit is a no-deal. Leavers will be naked, will have nowhere to run, it's what they voted for. They will blame others, but I doubt it will stick. Remainers can alleviate their bitterness by saying I told you so.

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11 minutes ago, highYield said:

We know already that the Brexit opinion poll was not, legally, a referendum.

There is no place within our current representative democracy for referendums - they simply do not, and cannot, exist within our unwritten constitution.

Well there you are HY. The vote was non-binding.

I agree, posing the vote was a cop-out of responsibility and its purpose was to resolve an internal war within the Tories.

Party before country and now it's infected the whole population while doing nothing to address the fundamental deprivation of policy driving us into the ground.

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The only democratic solution is a three way vote on the options available.

Brexiteers are terrified that the people have reconsidered in the light of two years exposure to the arguments.

Tough, if the people have indeed changed their minds, the brexiteers will have to "suck it up".

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1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Well there you are HY. The vote was non-binding.

I agree, posing the vote was a cop-out of responsibility and its purpose was to resolve an internal war within the Tories.

Party before country and now it's infected the whole population while doing nothing to address the fundamental deprivation of policy driving us into the ground.

If there was a fundamental deprivation of policy,  that happened whilst our representative politicians were sheltering under the umbrella of the 5 or so EU layers that are/were their masters.

I hugely respect your views, as I do thehowlers - even though they are wildly opposite to my own.

IMO, making our politicians responsible is a good start. Perhaps they'll begin to care more about the good of the country, rather than their duck ponds.

A forlorn hope perhaps. Wish I'd had the opportunity to have voted for something else.

But that's the political system that we currently have.

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  • The Prime Minister stated that there were three Brexit options available to the UK:   212 members have voted

    1. 1. Which of the Prime Minister's options would you choose?


      • Leave with the negotiated deal
      • Remain
      • Leave with no deal

    Please sign in or register to vote in this poll. View topic


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