Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Sheer Heart Attack]

11 minutes ago, slawek said:

1) Why do you then oppose bright people coming freely to the UK but not from other parts of the UK to London?

2) Sending money back is a form of compensation, just another form of export. Philippines made a business out of sending their nurses abroad. It is no more different than e.g. exporting stuff from China. 

1) I don't oppose bright people coming to the UK. In my previous posts, I mentioned that we should try to attract the best of the best from around the world to benefit the country.

In the case of movement of population in the UK, they are already citizens of the country and they are already counted into the figures.

The population of the UK has not massively increased in the last 15 years from people moving to one part of the UK to another part of the UK.

I respectfully suggest that you read my previous posts because you'll understand better my point of view because it seems like you're disagreeing with me just for the sake of it.

2) Again, it is their money and they should do with it what they please. I have just ordered some tech from aliexpress.com.

This is the problem with Remoaners who are triggered by any talk of the disadvantages of immigration.

The red mist of righteous disgust descends and they think that, if you disagree with them, you want a fortress Britain, huge import tariffs, exchange controls, zero immigration, and so on. That's just not the case.

Anyway, bringing up the Phillipines is an interesting point.

According to Wikipedia... 

"The Philippines is the largest exporter of nurses in the world supplying 25% of all overseas nurses. An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development study reported that one of every six foreign-born nurses in the OECD countries is from the Philippines. Of all employed Filipino RNs, roughly 85% are working overseas."

Nursing work in the Phillipines is not great with "low wages, poor benefit packages (and) fewer jobs available". The government there seem to be making a rod for their own back and it's obviously not our fault that compensation is so low and opportunities so scarse.

But "(a)ccording to many Filipinos working in hospitals, the most educated and skilled nurses are the first to go abroad...it is clear that there is a short supply of the most skilled nurses who go abroad.

"As a result, operating rooms are often staffed by novice nurses, and nurses with more experience work extremely long hours. As skilled nurses decline in the urban areas, nurses from rural areas migrate to hospitals in the cities for better pay. As a result, rural communities experience a drain of health resources. 

"Stories and studies alike demonstrate that a treatable emergency in the provinces may be fatal because there are no medical professionals to help treat them. In fact, "the number of Filipinos dying without medical attention has been steadily increasing for the last decade."

Anyone pretending that attracting, for example, skilled and trained medical staff from poorer countries overseas does not have a negative effect on the country they're leaving is in denial or deluded whether or not the original country "brought it on themselves".

[Staffsknot]

3 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

As eluded to in an earlier response, I do not have all the answers to this.

There are however three possible positions to take:

1. No immigration
2. Controlled immigration
3. Unlimited immigration

Each one has consequences for the immigrant, for the host population, and for the economy and wellbeing of the country an immigrant is leaving and the country the immigrant is coming to.

You are correct that FoM will not save brain drain from poorer countries because there are other rich countries like the UK still in the EU.

And, forgive me for being selfish, but I would prefer:

• controlled immigration limited to areas of skill shortage and where the country as a whole can gain an advantage from a particular person being here and
• a 20-30 year policy from this and successive governments of targeting training and investment in those areas of skill which we currently must plug using labour from abroad so we can reduce our dependence on immigration.

I know this will never happen but, if it did, it would improve opportunities and salaries across the UK for every citizen. It would also mean that 300,000 extra people every single year were not competing for homes to buy or rent.

But Brexit is the Australia model which is the brain drain so your point about ending FoM implying it cures that is duff argument. You are still nicking the doctors and nurses from poorer countries which you pointed out in your statement and now say you want.

Its not about having all the answers its about not really making a decent starting point and now changing it to well I don't want to compete with immigrants for a house - that is nowt to do with the altruism of being against taking folks who could contribute a lot to their native countries.

This is something completely different to a brain drain.

[24gray24]

3 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

1) I don't oppose bright people coming to the UK. In my previous posts, I mentioned that we should try to attract the best of the best from around the world to benefit the country.

In the case of movement of population in the UK, they are already citizens of the country and they are already counted into the figures.

The population of the UK has not massively increased in the last 15 years from people moving to one part of the UK to another part of the UK.

I respectfully suggest that you read my previous posts because you'll understand better my point of view because it seems like you're disagreeing with me just for the sake of it.

2) Again, it is their money and they should do with it what they please. I have just ordered some tech from aliexpress.com.

This is the problem with Remoaners who are triggered by any talk of the disadvantages of immigration.

The red mist of righteous disgust descends and they think that, if you disagree with them, you want a fortress Britain, huge import tariffs, exchange controls, zero immigration, and so on. That's just not the case.

Anyway, bringing up the Phillipines is an interesting point.

According to Wikipedia... 

"The Philippines is the largest exporter of nurses in the world supplying 25% of all overseas nurses. An Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development study reported that one of every six foreign-born nurses in the OECD countries is from the Philippines. Of all employed Filipino RNs, roughly 85% are working overseas."

Nursing work in the Phillipines is not great with "low wages, poor benefit packages (and) fewer jobs available". The government there seem to be making a rod for their own back and it's obviously not our fault that compensation is so low and opportunities so scarse.

But "(a)ccording to many Filipinos working in hospitals, the most educated and skilled nurses are the first to go abroad...it is clear that there is a short supply of the most skilled nurses who go abroad.

"As a result, operating rooms are often staffed by novice nurses, and nurses with more experience work extremely long hours. As skilled nurses decline in the urban areas, nurses from rural areas migrate to hospitals in the cities for better pay. As a result, rural communities experience a drain of health resources. 

"Stories and studies alike demonstrate that a treatable emergency in the provinces may be fatal because there are no medical professionals to help treat them. In fact, "the number of Filipinos dying without medical attention has been steadily increasing for the last decade."

Anyone pretending that attracting, for example, skilled and trained medical staff from poorer countries overseas does not have a negative effect on the country they're leaving is in denial or deluded whether or not the original country "brought it on themselves".

The Phillipines government charges a large amount for an export permit for those nurses heading abroad. 

 

[24gray24]

5 hours ago, dugsbody said:

No, I don't accept it as a long term problem because I fundamentally believe it is right and good for societies for humans to "be allowed" (*) to move around. We do it in the UK as I already said for goodness sake. I trust you're not out campaigning for removal of that right because it creates brain drain in county Durham?

Those countries you are concerned about who have joined the EU are prospering and will continue to prosper. Everyone made the same argument about Poland ("brain drain, oh poor Poland, I don't want Polish people living near me because I'm so worried about Poland"). Poland's wages have risen significantly and will continue to rise and the migration will not continue. Same will happen in other countries.

(*) Allowed = you want to box more people into their tiny geography and pretend it is because you care about them so much.

There are about 10 billion people in the world. At least 6 billion of them would be better off living in Europe.  

And most of those 6 billion wouldn't have any time for your beliefs or values. 

So how is your "fundamental belief that it is right and good" supposed to work?

[24gray24]

4 hours ago, yelims said:

Ah more of this one nation (ein reich, ein Volk, ein fuhrer) nonsense. Btw Ireland had to fight and suffer for decades to leave this abusive Union something there wasn’t an article50 we know full well how democratic membership of the United Kingdom is

 

anyways deep down you realise that you lost rights and are getting angry at being viewed as a third country person from our POV, a european (small e, part of a small number of periphery states viewed as Russians etc are viewed) not an EUropean 

 

well done for voting away your rights and opportunities to pursue a vision of a future where not a single positive can be named by people who don’t even bother hiding their disdain at the plebs 

Reducing immigration is a positive thing for Brexiters.  

And getting rid of the right of southern irish people to live and work in england would be another step forward. 

It's already increasing wages noticeably. 

But I suppose better wages isn't viewed as a positive thing. 

Freedom of movement is really about arbitraging cheap labour after all. 

[debtlessmanc]

10 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Reducing immigration is a positive thing for Brexiters.  

And getting rid of the right of southern irish people to live and work in england would be another step forward. 

It's already increasing wages noticeably. 

But I suppose better wages isn't viewed as a positive thing. 

Freedom of movement is really about arbitraging cheap labour after all. 

If you want an idea of why unlimited migration can be a problem

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/27/uks-east-timorese-population-faces-loss-of-rights-after-brexit

these are people who, according to the article, have lived in the U.K. for 30 years on Portuguese passports, although they cannot speak any Portuguese or English and have no idea what Brexit is

"There are Timorese people in the UK who are totally unaware that Brexit has happened. They could end up being in the country illegally next week and they won’t even know why,” Dos Santos said. Oxford’s East Timorese community chair, Rosalia Costa, said: “I’m expecting the worst. Language barriers are the biggest problem but there’s not much effort to communicate with us in our own languages."

I cannot imagine what work they are doing? In reality they are part of the Billions who would move to the U.K. given a chance, and invest nothing in understanding the west or indeed why it is wealthy.

the empathic part of me (and there is one) knows about the persecution of the Timorese and that there are only 20k or so of these guys here and so it's good to be kind etc. But all such thoughts have to be predicated on the numbers being manageable. 

 

 

[Sheer Heart Attack]

13 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

But Brexit is the Australia model which is the brain drain so your point about ending FoM implying it cures that is duff argument. You are still nicking the doctors and nurses from poorer countries which you pointed out in your statement and now say you want.

Its not about having all the answers its about not really making a decent starting point and now changing it to well I don't want to compete with immigrants for a house - that is nowt to do with the altruism of being against taking folks who could contribute a lot to their native countries.

This is something completely different to a brain drain.

My point throughout is that immigration, howsoever controlled, has positive and negative consequences.

In some countries like Croatia and Poland, it has caused a substantial reduction in the size of the working population. In the Phillipines (although much of it is self-inflicted), people may be dying because of it.

I have not argued my point of view as being based in altruism - I am merely stating that those who believe in FoM/limitless immigration do so from a point of view of not giving a shit about the negative effects it has here in the UK or for the countries immigrants come to us from. Your comments above confirm that I am correct because you don't deem either worthy of serious investigation or concern.

FWIW, I don't think the Government have any intention of reducing immigration numbers in the coming years.

11 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

There are about 10 billion people in the world. At least 6 billion of them would be better off living in Europe.  

And most of those 6 billion wouldn't have any time for your beliefs or values. 

So how is your "fundamental belief that it is right and good" supposed to work?

It's not a prerequisite for others to have time for my beliefs or values.

On a similar topic, I once read that the way to cure endemic poverty and lack of opportunity in Sunderland was to move its entire population to London. I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that but it does have a parallel with the 6 billion you mention coming across to Europe.

Do you have a maximum number of people you'd want to be given permission to live and work in the UK?

[Sheer Heart Attack]

12 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

The Phillipines government charges a large amount for an export permit for those nurses heading abroad. 

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the Filipinos dying without medical treatment in the rural areas of that country.

Good call.

[IMHAL]

3 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

My point throughout is that immigration, howsoever controlled, has positive and negative consequences.

In some countries like Croatia and Poland, it has caused a substantial reduction in the size of the working population. In the Phillipines (although much of it is self-inflicted), people may be dying because of it.

I have not argued my point of view as being based in altruism - I am merely stating that those who believe in FoM/limitless immigration do so from a point of view of not giving a shit about the negative effects it has here in the UK or for the countries immigrants come to us from. Your comments above confirm that I am correct because you don't deem either worthy of serious investigation or concern.

FWIW, I don't think the Government have any intention of reducing immigration numbers in the coming years.

It's not a prerequisite for others to have time for my beliefs or values.

On a similar topic, I once read that the way to cure endemic poverty and lack of opportunity in Sunderland was to move its entire population to London. I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that but it does have a parallel with the 6 billion you mention coming across to Europe.

Do you have a maximum number of people you'd want to be given permission to live and work in the UK?

The principle of FoM and controls are not necessarilly diametrically opposed. It has been noted many times before that controls could have been imposed by changing the benefit system or by implementing restrictions as other EU countries have done. Yet we chose not to and instead are implementing immigration controls (admittedly on a more global basis) but the focus is bringing in higher paid workers or more value to us and presumably the country they come from. It seems to me to be less fair in that respect, it's a just a trade off - there is no obvious higher moral ground in the new system.....in fact we are targetting more valuable assets from deprived countries that need them.

Edited June 28, 2021 by IMHAL

[erat_forte]

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0628/1231742-sefcovic-protocol-stormont/

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this meeting.

Will the nutters shout at him about sausages?

Will he nod sagely and say that they are "exploring all options" bla bla

 

[yelims]

13 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Reducing immigration is a positive thing for Brexiters.  

And getting rid of the right of southern irish people to live and work in england would be another step forward. 

It's already increasing wages noticeably. 

But I suppose better wages isn't viewed as a positive thing. 

Freedom of movement is really about arbitraging cheap labour after all. 

The same trend in wages increasing is seen in countries that are in EU and take a look at US altogether

If you going to attribute things to Brexit then how do you explain countries not Brexiting doing the same in the same measure?

 

 

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

The same trend in wages increasing is seen in countries that are in EU and take a look at US altogether

If you going to attribute things to Brexit then how do you explain countries not Brexiting doing the same in the same measure?

I've posted this several times.

They're going to ignore you, just the same as they ignored me.

They're all about the narrative. Facts never mattered in brexit, they're not about to start now.

[yelims]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

I've posted this several times.

They're going to ignore you, just the same as they ignored me.

They're all about the narrative. Facts never mattered in brexit, they're not about to start now.

Yep it’s same with “foreigners coming because of our welfare” argument which ignores that just about every European country has better welfare often several times better 

 

 

[jonb2]

On 27/06/2021 at 11:28, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Honestly mate, you're a moron.

All you seem to do is spam this thread with "gammon, fascists, Nazis, Mussolini, swastika" and so on.

Other than me (stupidly), no-one responds to your posts because they see them for what they are - unhinged spamming. Your opinions are worthless and you have nothing of value to contribute.

I am adding you to my "ignore" list, only the second person is nearly 15 years of visiting this forum.

Get back onto Twitter with all the othered triggered nutters.

I read Smiley's posts.

He's often right - his latest links are something we should be deeply worried about. The fact we still have people like Dido Harding in positions of power and mouthing off is much more significant than hiding behind flag waving type contributions.

Brexit groupies must never forget the damage they've done.

Keep them coming Yelims.

[jonb2]

On 27/06/2021 at 13:10, Dave Beans said:

...but to what cost, further down the chain? Similar types of exploitation is happening in agriculture too..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/lorry-drivers-from-outside-eu-exploited-in-lockdown-delivery-surge

https://www.itfglobal.org/en/sector/road-transport/european-trucking-exploitation-of-workers

And nurses. And care workers. And a shed load of others that support the backbone of a civilised country.

Nobody will get a rise unless they sit on Hancocks's lap.

[24gray24]

7 hours ago, yelims said:

The same trend in wages increasing is seen in countries that are in EU and take a look at US altogether

If you going to attribute things to Brexit then how do you explain countries not Brexiting doing the same in the same measure?

 

 

People who lost their jobs early in the pandemic went home. 

The assumption by governments is it's temporary and they'll all come back. But that assumption could be wrong;  in uk because of brexit, (and in US because of riots in cities.)

Less immigrants and higher wages is not a positive for you. It's may not even be possible in your mind that the 2 could be connected.

But for Brexiters it's obvious and desirable. 

 

10 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Do you have a maximum number of people you'd want to be given permission to live and work in the UK?

 Brexiters would say zero more I suspect. 

Close the doors, we're full up is the brexiter sentiment.

6 hours ago, dugsbody said:

I've posted this several times.

They're going to ignore you, just the same as they ignored me.

They're all about the narrative. Facts never mattered in brexit, they're not about to start now.

What's your time limit on bitterness over Brexit? 

5 hours ago, yelims said:

 just about every European country has better welfare often several times better 

 

 

Is that actually true? 

80% for 6 months ain't better than 1/4 as much for unlimited numbers of  years after all. 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

9 minutes ago, 24gray24 said:

People who lost their jobs early in the pandemic went home. 

The assumption by governments is it's temporary and they'll all come back. But that assumption could be wrong;  in uk because of brexit, (and in US because of riots in cities.)

Less immigrants and higher wages is not a positive for you. It's may not even be possible in your mind that the 2 could be connected.

But for Brexiters it's obvious and desirable. 

Might be obvious to Leave voters but no academic study maned to find evidence to support it. 

9 minutes ago, 24gray24 said:

 Brexiters would say zero more I suspect. 

Close the doors, we're full up is the brexiter sentiment.

You mean the Leave voter sentiment, not to be confused with Brexiters who generally want more immigration ideally from cheaper parts of the world than the EU. 

 

[pig]

On 27/06/2021 at 11:04, Sheer Heart Attack said:

One argument I'm surprised Brexiteers did not make more to appeal to more liberal-leaning waverers was the inherent and structural racism of Britain's immigration as a member of the EU.

Essentially, the predominantely white European had no problem getting into the UK where as the rest of the world, which is not predominantely white, had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get in.

Personally, as long as an immigrant knuckles down when they get here and contributes, they're more than welcome especially those who give the country a competitive/cultural advantage.

But, as an aside, the coronavirus pandemic has shown us how reliant we are on overseas doctors, nurses, and keyline workers. Thank God they were here.

I naively hope and wish that we can become more self-reliant in training British people to fill these roles so that we don't end up nicking talent from much poorer countries for which investment in training is a much greater burden proportionally.

What a silly idea.

Most if not all racists are Leavers, most Remainers aren't stupid

So how would that argument have helped the Brexit cult ?

[Staffsknot]

15 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

If you want an idea of why unlimited migration can be a problem

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/27/uks-east-timorese-population-faces-loss-of-rights-after-brexit

these are people who, according to the article, have lived in the U.K. for 30 years on Portuguese passports, although they cannot speak any Portuguese or English and have no idea what Brexit is

"There are Timorese people in the UK who are totally unaware that Brexit has happened. They could end up being in the country illegally next week and they won’t even know why,” Dos Santos said. Oxford’s East Timorese community chair, Rosalia Costa, said: “I’m expecting the worst. Language barriers are the biggest problem but there’s not much effort to communicate with us in our own languages."

I cannot imagine what work they are doing? In reality they are part of the Billions who would move to the U.K. given a chance, and invest nothing in understanding the west or indeed why it is wealthy.

the empathic part of me (and there is one) knows about the persecution of the Timorese and that there are only 20k or so of these guys here and so it's good to be kind etc. But all such thoughts have to be predicated on the numbers being manageable. 

 

 

Like Brits in the Costas setting up a Madness theme pub and turning it into Peckham / demanding the locals speak in English as 'its the world's language'.

Now East Timor was a conflict zone and a newly created nation - I know few Aussie's deployed there back during the late 2006-7 and had a rough time. Many refugees fled from 70s onwards, they probably came as refugees and were told by a nice person at the home office that it was easier to use Portugese passport than claim asylum. There's a probable answer. 30 years ago is roughly the genocide campaign of Indonesian invasion still going on.

Doesn't make the nice big bad EU thing though does it - they'd be here anyway just under different allocation of title. I suspect you are smart enough to know about this stuff though so a bit surprised you went here.

[Staffsknot]

15 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Your comments above confirm that I am correct because you don't deem either worthy of serious investigation or concern

Nice leap of BS there - it confirms nothing I just pointed out your solution does jackall.

The points system is still a nick as many smart folk as we can system. 

Now here is a thought - how many folks often return to their native country complete with healthy CV and experience to then go higher and further - there's quite a lot return home. They have skills and experience which can then benefit their own nation. Remittances sent home also help improve the lot of their families back home.

Know quite a few African doctors who've headed back to Kenya and Uganda after having done time in NHS. They are better trained and skilled than could have managed by staying put and often go on to do exceptional work. Know one doing cataracts with charities after time in UK right now.

I suspect you don't actually give a rats ass about how those countries are affected its just a nice plot device. 

[Confusion of VIs]

Bit of a reality check. 

UK poorest nation per capita in northwest Europe

13th out of 13 in northwest Europe. I was genuinely surprised by this, so used to hearing arguments about whether we are the 5th or 6th richest country in the world. 

[Staffsknot]

16 hours ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the Filipinos dying without medical treatment in the rural areas of that country.

Complete straw of an argument as you can have 10 times the number of trained nurses and ban them from leaving country but there still won't be the healthcare or facilities in those rural areas. Notwithstanding the insurgency in several rural areas.

Now if you have 500 nurses and 300 posts how much benefit are the extra nurses? Are the Manila based Gov going to magic up extra funds to pay for these extra nurses or are they going to end up as office workers or working on boats?

You haven't found a way to magic up the actual facilities and support services you've just killed off the remittances and experience those folks gain that benefit Philippines.

Not a good call 😉

 

[kzb]

15 hours ago, erat_forte said:

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0628/1231742-sefcovic-protocol-stormont/

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this meeting.

Will the nutters shout at him about sausages?

Will he nod sagely and say that they are "exploring all options" bla bla

 

An ex-Czech Communist Party member who has never had a proper job in his life.

This Protocol has actually got to please and delight the people of Northern Ireland.  Otherwise their Assembly can vote it down in 2024. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by kzb

[dugsbody]

10 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

What's your time limit on bitterness over Brexit? 

What is your time limit on continuing to ignore reality?

[Sheer Heart Attack]

7 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Nice leap of BS there - it confirms nothing I just pointed out your solution does jackall.

The points system is still a nick as many smart folk as we can system. 

Now here is a thought - how many folks often return to their native country complete with healthy CV and experience to then go higher and further - there's quite a lot return home. They have skills and experience which can then benefit their own nation. Remittances sent home also help improve the lot of their families back home.

Know quite a few African doctors who've headed back to Kenya and Uganda after having done time in NHS. They are better trained and skilled than could have managed by staying put and often go on to do exceptional work. Know one doing cataracts with charities after time in UK right now.

I suspect you don't actually give a rats ass about how those countries are affected its just a nice plot device. 

Suspect what you will, Staffsknot.

I have presented this disgruntled Remoaner echo chamber of a thread with evidence of the damage FoM does to poorer countries and the mass emigration of a class of professional (in this case, RNs) from a poor country much further away.

Your point blank refusal to acknowledge the damage done by Filipino nurse migration demonstrates the moral vaccum in which you operate with your dismissal of a valid argument as "strawman". Very cynical but very see-through.

Ability to follow a thread is also not a strong point of yours as, earlier in this thread, I stated that I have no problem with migrants sending cash back to their home countries and families.

A great many of the number of EU nationals signing on to stay in the UK will be from poorer countries and they're not looking to return anytime soon. That's a hammerblow to the hearts of the development of these nations.

Britain is a parasite for the best of the best poorer overseas countries have to offer instead of investing in training our own people up.

Remoaner Reaction - shrug shoulders, deny reality, attack the messenger.

Yawn - when's World War 3 happening by the way?