zugzwang Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, wighty said: How is this for EU studidity?. With the virus accelerating again in France, they can import it into Spain. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/spain-furious-at-huge-numbers-of-french-tourists-while-locals-cant-move-between-regions/ar-BB1f5mHL?li=AAnZ9Ug Stupid and self-defeating but essentially what the West has been doing since day one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 9 hours ago, Peter Hun said: Lying? It's a matter of interpretation. I don't know what the EU expect to achieve, no country who has paid for their own supply line will give it up. AZN cannot take it from them. I think you are not correct here, it's just guessing from your side. The mistake cost AZ billions already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, dugsbody said: My interpretation is that if the UK funded the build out of these sites for exclusivity in the UK supply, then the UK has the right to that supply. It is a vaccine nationalism of a sort but not really, since the claim is that they built these sites exclusively for the UK. That seems fair to me (with the huge caveat that I distrust everything about the UK vs EU wars and haven't followed closely enough to know if the claim is 100% true - @Peter Hun says it is). On the other hand, imagine you are a client of a company who promised to use certain sites to deliver something to you and also promised they had no exclusivity clauses that would conflict with your order, and then that turns out to be untrue. You'd naturally be very angry with that company, who has now endangered your citizens and I would expect my own government to seek to redress this in whatever manner they chose. One possible explanation is that at the time AZ sign contract with the EU the exclusivity clauses wasn't there. Possibility is they were added afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 7 hours ago, Peter Hun said: Two different legal systems and two different contracts, for a start. The EU has no jurisdiction in the UK and vice versa. AzN they signed with (sweden) was a different company to the UK. And you cannot take a part of a contract in isolation. As for EU exporting to the UK. It was for the Pfizor vaccine. Irrelevant. Did you see the contracts? It's only speculation from your side, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Brexit has been a disaster for Britain as collapsing European trade puts UK firms out of business The UK government promised that Brexit would liberate Britain from European trading regulations and herald a bright new era for Britain on the world stage. Yet despite spending years campaigning for the UK's exit from the European Union last year, Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his colleagues have been oddly quiet about Britain's fortunes ever since it left. The reason for their silence is becoming increasingly obvious. In the few short months since Britain left European trade and customs rules, there has been a dramatic decline in UK trade. According to the UK's Office for National Statistics, trade between the EU and UK was hit hard in January, with exports down by 40.7% compared to December and imports from the EU down by 28% in the same period. This is a colossal decline, yet the decline for some sectors has been even worse. However, many leading business figures believe that Brexit's impact will be permanent. businessinsider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Brexit reality only hitting now, EU's Barnier says The European Union's former Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, said on Wednesday the reality of Britain's decision to leave the bloc was only now being felt, years after the British 2016 referendum on membership. "For many people the real consequences of the referendum are only now starting to sink in. The reality, which has become clear for all to see, is that Brexit means recreating trade barriers that had not existed for 47 years," he said. He also said Brexit was a lesson for the EU, which he said must show its 450 million citizens that the 27-state bloc benefited all, and was not the distant, uncaring bureaucracy it is often portrayed to be by supporters of Brexit. Yahoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, kzb said: Irrespective of who is president we are sovereign equals. Or we would be if we didn't agree to the level playing field with the EU. So I guess we are not, but that is down to our EU arrangement not the US. So is North Korea... it does not really count for that much. What matters is the size of the market and access to that market. Quote Still 5th biggest economy in the world. 6th actually....but for how long. Quote Only if we let them. Once again you have got the wrong idea, you think it is all about the bigger partner bullying the other into something they don't want to do. It's not like that because we can just walk away. Of course we can walk away, but we have something to prove politically. It is quite likely we will accept a raw'er deal IMHO.... either way, the best outcome scenario increases our GDP by a paultry 0.2% of GDP.....hardly worth losing sleep over if we don't get one or gloating about if we do get a deal. Certainly nothing compared to the losses achieved by Brexit so far. Edited March 31, 2021 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: The total number of doses contracted to the UK is a quarter of the number the EU has ordered. If the production had gone as smoothly as hoped, they would have delivered the UK order in full by now, freeing up that capacity for the EU or any other customers. The problem isn't the UK contract. In fact without the UK contracts, deliveries to the EU would have been even slower. Sorry you are simply talking rubbish. 1) The UK sites would have to deliver 100m doses for the UK instantly with 100% certainty for the UK contract not to have any negative impact on the EU contract. Not physically possible. 2) The AZ statement was made recently (before AZ delivered the UK order) and exclusivity given to the UK has already negatively impacted the EU order. We know for sure (as it is a past event) that the UK contract impeded the EU contract fulfillment. Edited March 31, 2021 by slawek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, rollover said: Brexit reality only hitting now, EU's Barnier says The European Union's former Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, said on Wednesday the reality of Britain's decision to leave the bloc was only now being felt, years after the British 2016 referendum on membership. "For many people the real consequences of the referendum are only now starting to sink in. The reality, which has become clear for all to see, is that Brexit means recreating trade barriers that had not existed for 47 years," he said. He also said Brexit was a lesson for the EU, which he said must show its 450 million citizens that the 27-state bloc benefited all, and was not the distant, uncaring bureaucracy it is often portrayed to be by supporters of Brexit. Yahoo The full impact of Brexit is still to be experienced. There are many grace periods in place (e.g. checks on imports from the EU) and decisions to be made by the EU (e.g. financial service access to the EU market). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, kzb said: Irrespective of who is president we are sovereign equals. Or we would be if we didn't agree to the level playing field with the EU. So I guess we are not, but that is down to our EU arrangement not the US. Still 5th biggest economy in the world. Only if we let them. Once again you have got the wrong idea, you think it is all about the bigger partner bullying the other into something they don't want to do. It's not like that because we can just walk away. You might think I'm picking on you K - but I'm not. GDP per capita is the best measure of a country's wealth IMO. Have a look here. https://statisticstimes.com/economy/projected-world-gdp-capita-ranking.php The only way is down with the dishonesty and ineptitude of our current crop of politicians, Bought and paid for. Like the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Peter Hun said: I don't think you can apply simple logic, the contracts are with different companies with different legal jurisdictions. They are incompatible with each other. Hancock statement "the UK has exclusivity (over AZ UK production)" and the AZ statement "not being under any obligation to other parties that would impede to complete the fulfillment of its obligations (to the EU)" cannot be both true regardless of the contract details. If you disagree please provide an example how those two statements can be true at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 On 30/03/2021 at 10:00, pig said: Maybe a new Britain could comprise Ireland Wales and Scotland ? I'd love that. A hearty meal of haggis and Bushmills while the entertainment is watching Englanders' second homes in Wales being torched. Meanwhile in England. Communal gatherings, in the workhouse, around the only black and white television (maybe just white will do) watching reruns of Jim Davidson and Love thy Neighbour and swilling down crates of Red Barrel. No Irish, no Blacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 3 hours ago, kzb said: Irrespective of who is president we are sovereign equals. Or we would be if we didn't agree to the level playing field with the EU. So I guess we are not, but that is down to our EU arrangement not the US. Still 5th biggest economy in the world. Only if we let them. Once again you have got the wrong idea, you think it is all about the bigger partner bullying the other into something they don't want to do. It's not like that because we can just walk away. See ? Now its back to being the biggest economy in the known multiverse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 49 minutes ago, IMHAL said: So is North Korea... it does not really count for that much. What matters is the size of the market and access to that market. Maybe, but we were on about sovereignty not power or influence. You are still getting them confused. 51 minutes ago, IMHAL said: 6th actually....but for how long. Nevertheless still a country worth selling to. 52 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Of course we can walk away, but we have something to prove politically. It is quite likely we will accept a raw'er deal IMHO.... either way, the best outcome scenario increases our GDP by a paultry 0.2% of GDP.....hardly worth losing sleep over if we don't get one or gloating about if we do get a deal. Certainly nothing compared to the losses achieved by Brexit so far. Another model said 4%. The fact is if we have the US and the EU competing with each other to supply us with stuff that we can't grow here that can only be good for ordinary Brits. In the EU there was no competition because of the EU external tariffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 44 minutes ago, slawek said: Sorry you are simply talking rubbish. 1) The UK sites would have to deliver 100m doses for the UK instantly with 100% certainty for the UK contract not to have any negative impact on the EU contract. Not physically possible. 2) The AZ statement was made recently (before AZ delivered the UK order) and exclusivity given to the UK has already negatively impacted the EU order. We know for sure (as it is a past event) that the UK contract impeded the EU contract fulfillment. You are reading something into the contract that isn't there. Based on your understanding, the existence of any other customer would be a breach of contract because it would negatively impact the speed with which doses could be delivered to the EU. You are basically reading the EU contract as giving the EU exclusivity over their production in the whole of Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHorseWaits-NoMore Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, rollover said: Brexit has been a disaster for Britain as collapsing European trade puts UK firms out of business... The first rule of the Brexit, you do not talk about Brexit (especially in the UK press). 🙊 🙈 🙉 La La La, I can't hear you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 35 minutes ago, jonb2 said: You might think I'm picking on you K - but I'm not. GDP per capita is the best measure of a country's wealth IMO. I don't think it is in this context. It depends what you are selling. If you are selling luxury items you might target high GDP/capita countries, but if it's the basics you'd be better targeting high population and moderate GDP/person. A lot of the countries high up on your list are very small population-wise. However rich they are they can only eat so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 38 minutes ago, slawek said: Hancock statement "the UK has exclusivity (over AZ UK production)" and the AZ statement "not being under any obligation to other parties that would impede to complete the fulfillment of its obligations (to the EU)" cannot be both true regardless of the contract details. If you disagree please provide an example how those two statements can be true at the same time. "Best reasonable efforts" is possibly the answer. Provide 300m asap may not mean before 100m promised to someone else earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24gray24 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 9 minutes ago, DarkHorseWaits-NoMore said: The first rule of the Brexit, you do not talk about Brexit (especially in the UK press). 🙊 🙈 🙉 La La La, I can't hear you! Isn't that the first rule of Italian solvency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, kzb said: Maybe, but we were on about sovereignty not power or influence. You are still getting them confused. No - you are confused. Soveriegnty is secondary to power and influence. The EU has more power and influency than the UK...it's just a fact 1 hour ago, kzb said: Nevertheless still a country worth selling to. Of course we are worth selling to. But we are not equal. 1 hour ago, kzb said: Another model said 4%. The fact is if we have the US and the EU competing with each other to supply us with stuff that we can't grow here that can only be good for ordinary Brits. In the EU there was no competition because of the EU external tariffs. Please provide links. The OBR (governments own figures) states 0.2%. It matters not that the EU and the US are competing (we all are). What matters is how much trade we do with each block....geography matters very much. You cannot change that. Sorry...no matter how much you want the US to replace the EU economically...it won't. Get used to the fact that Brexit will be economically damaging. It's happening now and will continue. Sad but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, rollover said: Brexit reality only hitting now, EU's Barnier says The European Union's former Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, said on Wednesday the reality of Britain's decision to leave the bloc was only now being felt, years after the British 2016 referendum on membership. "For many people the real consequences of the referendum are only now starting to sink in. The reality, which has become clear for all to see, is that Brexit means recreating trade barriers that had not existed for 47 years," he said. He also said Brexit was a lesson for the EU, which he said must show its 450 million citizens that the 27-state bloc benefited all, and was not the distant, uncaring bureaucracy it is often portrayed to be by supporters of Brexit. Yahoo Brexit, even with a deal, is probably the worlds biggest ever red tape creation exercise. Edited March 31, 2021 by Confusion of VIs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: No - you are confused. Soveriegnty is secondary to power and influence. Sovereignty is sovereignty. Power and influence are power and influence. Try and learn what the difference is for your own understanding. If you learn it for yourself you will remember it in future. 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: Of course we are worth selling to. But we are not equal. We are smaller and less powerful than the US but we are equal as sovereign nations. If we are worth selling to, there are potential deals to be done. But it does not mean we have to take everything the US wants. I don't know why you think that. 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: Please provide links. The OBR (governments own figures) states 0.2%. It matters not that the EU and the US are competing (we all are). What matters is how much trade we do with each block....geography matters very much. You cannot change that. Sorry...no matter how much you want the US to replace the EU economically...it won't. Get used to the fact that Brexit will be economically damaging. It's happening now and will continue. Sad but true. I wasn't saying replace the EU trade with US trade. I'm saying have both available to us to choose between, as consumers. When you say geography matters very much, did you see the size of that Ever Given ? I've not kept the link. Nobody knows what the effect on GDP might be in the future anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 3 hours ago, pig said: See ? Now its back to being the biggest economy in the known multiverse No, simply pointing out we are a respectable size market, so other nations will want to do trade deals with us. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, IMHAL said: No - you are confused. Soveriegnty is secondary to power and influence. The EU has more power and influency than the UK...it's just a fact Sequential rankings can give a misleading view of power, whether you're talking about the UK or the EU. In global terms, the EU is still a relatively small part of the economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 10 hours ago, rollover said: Did you see the contracts? It's only speculation from your side, isn't it? Yes I read them, whats your point? I,m also not a lawyer in Sweden, UK or Belgium so I don't speculate about it. Which is precisely the point I was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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