Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[pig]

39 minutes ago, kzb said:

Oh come on.  We know what a right on leftist you are. 

Answer the question, would you have voted Labour in 1983?

You have no idea lol. And by the way being RW does not mean endlessly making up tendentious sh1te to shore up bigotry and then trying to legitimise it by claiming its not-Left. You're probably be surprised to hear the RW is as principled and valid as the LW - give it a go !

Tough but interesting question - in fact impossible to answer. My problem is that I watched my oldies go from enthusiasm to disillusionment with Thatcher. Would I have made the same 'mistake' ? Best vote Thatcher to get Michael Foot out of the way ? Best vote Michael Foot to get Thatcher out ?

Even outside all the racist tripe Brexit is brainless. Arguments and lies have been thrown up across the Nationalist to Socialist spectrum (!) It was obvious early on in the referendum campaign that Leavers had no idea what they were talking about. I was done with it some time before the Breaking point poster.

 

[Cocha]

21 hours ago, dugsbody said:

The people who wanted to leave the EU kept voting Tory then blaming the EU for their problems 🤣

Most of us who wanted to remain actually saw the problems and wanted to fix them, in the correct manner. You've basically decided to burn the UK because of your own stupidity. No-one else's fault but yours.

Well you should have done it something about it sooner then, then you might still have been a part of your beloved political union 🤣

All the Brexiteers I know and come across are very happy, it is you losers who appear to be struggling to cope 😉

[The Moderators]

2 minutes ago, Cocha said:

Well you should have done it something about it sooner then, then you might still have been a part of your beloved political union 🤣

All the Brexiteers I know and come across are very happy, it is you losers who appear to be struggling to cope 😉

No more insults please.

[zugzwang]

2 hours ago, kzb said:

So if it had been a left-wing Brexit, would that have been OK by you?

And

Did you vote Labour in 1983 ?  If you were not old enough, would you have voted Labour given the chance?

I voted Leave! Hoped Corbs would articulate the cause.; when he didn't I swapped sides. Better to remain and reform than the misery of Global Britain.

A couple of years too young but yes, I'd probably have voted for the Foot manifesto in 1983.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

5 hours ago, NoHPCinTheUK said:

Why? Why bother doing that? 

I don't remember the specifics from the history lesson but it was something about a King (or Queen) not wanting to be surrounded by Catholic countries. Was hoping someone else on here would know. 

[dryrot]

5 hours ago, slawek said:

 

As a Brexiteer, even I could not have foreseen how catastrophic the EU has been. 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/18/the-eu-is-behaving-like-a-psychopath/

"The EU’s vaccine programme is a disaster of its own making. It was bad enough when it seemed that only European citizens would pay for Brussels’ incompetence with their lives. Now the EU’s malicious lies and lashing out are going to get a lot more people killed."

[slawek]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

As a Brexiteer, even I could not have foreseen how catastrophic the EU has been. 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/18/the-eu-is-behaving-like-a-psychopath/

"The EU’s vaccine programme is a disaster of its own making. It was bad enough when it seemed that only European citizens would pay for Brussels’ incompetence with their lives. Now the EU’s malicious lies and lashing out are going to get a lot more people killed."

What are you talking about?

1) AZ failed to fulfill their contract so the EU have a full right to seek compensation

2) AZ messed up, they over promised. The UK has also a problem with AZ. They delivered around 50% what they were supposed to. The UK has to ask an India manufacturer for additional doses now. 

3) The difference between the UK and the EU deliveries so far are due to

a) the UK starting a little earlier

b) the UK overbooking more supplies in Q1 so they have more headroom

c) the UK being 6 times smaller so it is much easier to find additional supplies to fill the AZ gap   

4) The EU is quickly catching up. They will have 400-500m vaccine doses delivered in Q2, enough to vaccine the whole EU once. In no way the EU vaccination program is a disaster. Thanks to the EU not blocking vaccine exports, like the US, the UK could vaccine 10-15% of its population. 

5) Without the EU the situation would be much worse. The richest countries would take care of themselves leaving other countries fighting between each other for remaining supplies. The less rich countries in the EU are very happy that the EU is arranging vaccine purchases as it means cheaper, faster and fairer distribution of vaccines in the EU.   

[debtlessmanc]

4 hours ago, yelims said:

Abusive? I think my tone is quite restrained towards neo nazis as possibly some of them have mental issues 

 

you might not have a problem with fascism but I rather my kids not grow up next to a country following German footsteps of a 100 years ago

That is really insulting and you know it. The UK may be misguided, and indeed alienating her neighbours (i agree to this). But the uk has never, never, had a significant far right movement. It went for brexit comfortable in its skin. Always certain, perhaps totally wrong yes, but not fascist. It resisted it totally in the 1930's whereas most european countries did not.

You know what- the EU countries are mostly disturbed by this all because they know what i have written to be true.

Edited March 18, 2021 by debtlessmanc

[slawek]

14 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

That is really insulting and you know it. The UK may be misguided, and indeed alienating her neighbours (i agree to this). But the uk has never, never, had a significant far right movement. It went for brexit comfortable in its skin. Always certain, perhaps totally wrong yes, but not fascist. It resisted it totally in the 1930's whereas most european countries did not.

You know what- the EU countries are mostly disturbed by this all because they know what i have written to be true.

The UK is going in the direction of fascism.

How many of these points are true or close to true? 

[Confusion of VIs]

4 hours ago, Cocha said:

All the Brexiteers I know and come across are very happy, it is you losers who appear to be struggling to cope 😉

Hard to believe that.

Now that we have left the Brexit supporting press seem to be even more obsessed with and angry about the EU.  I presume these papers are talking to Leavers.

 

[zugzwang]

3 hours ago, dryrot said:

As a Brexiteer, even I could not have foreseen how catastrophic the EU has been. 

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/18/the-eu-is-behaving-like-a-psychopath/

"The EU’s vaccine programme is a disaster of its own making. It was bad enough when it seemed that only European citizens would pay for Brussels’ incompetence with their lives. Now the EU’s malicious lies and lashing out are going to get a lot more people killed."

Spiked magazine, so-called because it should have been.

How did a washed up shower of revolutionary Marxists became the central voice of modern Conservatism?

Now that is a mystery.

[zugzwang]

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers

Quote

For years, people have speculated about who is behind a shadowy group of well-connected ‘free speech advocates’ spreading far-right ideologies and climate science denial.

The group emerged from a libel trial and bankruptcy of the ‘Living Marxism’ magazine in 2000, has roots in the Trotskyist left, and is now the factory behind a production line of far-right polemic that has infiltrated mainstream media and politics. It currently has its public home on Spiked — a website dedicated to belligerent, populist, anti-environmental, Islamophobic ‘analysis’.

Until now, no one knew who funded the network. 

Through a joint investigation with George Monbiot at The Guardian, DeSmog UK can reveal that the group are funded by the Koch brothers — the right-wing libertarian US oil billionaires who have been at the heart of climate change denial in the United States.  

Our investigation shows that Spiked has received $300,000 from the Kochs over the past three years, including $150,000 in 2016 — the year of Donald Trump’s US presidential election victory and the UK’s Brexit referendum.

Koch Industries is the largest privately-owned energy company in the US. It has been described as a “kingpin of climate science denial”, outpacing ExxonMobil when it comes to donations to organisations opposing established climate science and regulations to combat greenhouse gas emissions.

The Koch brothers’ funding network has also been credited with the rise in the influence of far-right, libertarian, rampant free-market capitalist thinking in the US and UK.

 

[dugsbody]

23 hours ago, slawek said:

Most of the media is under control of the UK gov, even BBC. The rest rather avoids pointing out obvious lies as that would be perceived as anti-British. The UK is in a grip of nationalism, rising your head is risky. 

This is the correct answer. 

[dugsbody]

22 hours ago, jonb2 said:

Haven't you got it yet? Who the feck cares?

It doesn't matter what YOU think - you were used by a mere handful of maggots who simply wanted to enrich themselves. Now they have everything they want and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

'Levelling up' - don't make me laugh! They don't give a toss.

Neither do brexit voters.

 

 

[dugsbody]

15 hours ago, Young Turk said:

As I said, the best case for remaining was the conservative case that leaving was likely to be bad, so remaining was probably preferable despite its faults. People tried to drum up support as that is the best way to win a vote. But that was posturing. They weren't actually pro-Europeans. 

You are correct. The remain campaign relied on people who a few years before were telling people the EU was a problem.

There are a few of us around, pro-Europeans. The EU is a step towards a more open world. It attempts to treat all people across the countries who join equally, rather than favouring (explicitly) one group over another. A poorer, uneducated person has the same rights in the EU as a rich privileged person.

This is the same concept in the four nations of the UK, just wider. I believe in that principle. So do brexiters for that matter, they just believe it should only apply to the four nations of the UK and no further. 

The EU was founded a promote integration of the people of Europe. Get them living amongst each other, trading tightly with each other, introduce Erasmus, eurorail, etc, and people that once seemed like outsiders now seem like part of the family. And that is how most continental Europeans see it and why they deem FOM as one of the best parts of the EU, while the UK always felt it was the worst part. The UK public, at least the older generations, never bought into these ideas. They never saw themselves as European. I bet they still would not describe themselves as European, despite being part of Europe.

If you asked the people of continental Europe if the EU had succeeded in the intent, they would say yes. If you asked brexiters in the UK, they would say no, peace in Europe came about despite the EU, not because of it.

But as I say, there are some of us around who don't just look at the EU as how it can benefit the UK financially, we actually believe in the principles of the EU, even though it has a lot of messy compromises and can never be perfect because of the nature of countries.

[dryrot]

10 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

That is really insulting and you know it. The UK may be misguided, and indeed alienating her neighbours (i agree to this). But the uk has never, never, had a significant far right movement. It went for brexit comfortable in its skin. Always certain, perhaps totally wrong yes, but not fascist. It resisted it totally in the 1930's whereas most european countries did not.

You know what- the EU countries are mostly disturbed by this all because they know what i have written to be true.

You cant argue with them. France had a run-off presidential election in 2002 with Jean-Marie Le Pen's NF. Greece had Golden Dawn - they were strengthened by the evil Euro policy. Brussels Must Prevail - that supports local extremism. Luckily the UK have elections.

[dryrot]

11 hours ago, slawek said:

What are you talking about?

1) AZ failed to fulfill their contract so the EU have a full right to seek compensation

2) AZ messed up, they over promised. The UK has also a problem with AZ. They delivered around 50% what they were supposed to. The UK has to ask an India manufacturer for additional doses now. 

3) The difference between the UK and the EU deliveries so far are due to

a) the UK starting a little earlier

b) the UK overbooking more supplies in Q1 so they have more headroom

c) the UK being 6 times smaller so it is much easier to find additional supplies to fill the AZ gap   

4) The EU is quickly catching up. They will have 400-500m vaccine doses delivered in Q2, enough to vaccine the whole EU once. In no way the EU vaccination program is a disaster. Thanks to the EU not blocking vaccine exports, like the US, the UK could vaccine 10-15% of its population. 

5) Without the EU the situation would be much worse. The richest countries would take care of themselves leaving other countries fighting between each other for remaining supplies. The less rich countries in the EU are very happy that the EU is arranging vaccine purchases as it means cheaper, faster and fairer distribution of vaccines in the EU.   

I'm dealing with a fanatic... Would you dispute the following?

"A German government source briefed Handelsblatt – at the time a well-respected financial paper – that the AstraZeneca vaccines were just six per cent effective at preventing disease among the elderly (ie, the very cohort most in need of protection from Covid). This was nonsense. But it led French president Emmanuel Macron to claim that the jab was ‘quasi-ineffective’. Then, von der Leyen accused the UK of compromising safety by authorising the AstraZeneca vaccine too quickly – even though the EMA had also approved it days before. French, German and Italian regulators refused to allow the elderly to be given the jab – though this groundless decision has since been reversed. The effect of this has been to cast suspicion on the vaccine, leading Europeans to refuse it in large number."

The EU Prez (cant remember which one , theres about a dozen of 'em) said the UK had banned vaccine exports. That was a blatant lie. Its the EU which has banned vaccine exports (even of the astra-zeneca, which they erroneously criticise anyway)

[dugsbody]

14 hours ago, Cocha said:

Well you should have done it something about it sooner then, then you might still have been a part of your beloved political union 🤣

All the Brexiteers I know and come across are very happy, it is you losers who appear to be struggling to cope 😉

"Done something about it"? Like I just said in the post you're replying to, I voted for parties I believed would solve the problem, rather than a political party that started the problem and never had any intention of solving it. The same party that always creates scapegoats (benefit scroungers, foreigners, immigrants, etc). 

Tell me, explicitly, without your stupid political trolling answers, what more should I have done about it? 

I struggle to cope with seeing my country change around me, yes. What I had grown up thinking as a stable, mature and dignified country, has been commandeered by a bunch of liars and lying now seems normalised. Just point at the right scapegoat, invent a new outrage story and bingo, you've got your voters hooked for another few years. You're part of that problem.

[slawek]

10 minutes ago, dryrot said:

I'm dealing with a fanatic... Would you dispute the following?

"A German government source briefed Handelsblatt – at the time a well-respected financial paper – that the AstraZeneca vaccines were just six per cent effective at preventing disease among the elderly (ie, the very cohort most in need of protection from Covid). This was nonsense. But it led French president Emmanuel Macron to claim that the jab was ‘quasi-ineffective’. Then, von der Leyen accused the UK of compromising safety by authorising the AstraZeneca vaccine too quickly – even though the EMA had also approved it days before. French, German and Italian regulators refused to allow the elderly to be given the jab – though this groundless decision has since been reversed. The effect of this has been to cast suspicion on the vaccine, leading Europeans to refuse it in large number."

The EU Prez (cant remember which one , theres about a dozen of 'em) said the UK had banned vaccine exports. That was a blatant lie. Its the EU which has banned vaccine exports (even of the astra-zeneca, which they erroneously criticise anyway)

I could say the same about you but I didn't so please keep the conversation on a certain level.

All this spiked article is just anti-EU propaganda, a mixture of fake news, missing facts, selective quoting, implying.  

The fact is there weren't initially any evidence that vaccine was effective for the elderly.  Van der Leyen said that EMA took longer because it played safe. Nothing wrong with it. French. German and Italian played even safer than EMA, they have right to do this. There was no evidence so they were cautious. Nothing wrong with it. The UK took a risk, which paid off but it could have gone bad. What would you say if after vaccinating elderly it would have turned out that it is ineffective or even worse dangerous? BJ is a risk taker, he sometimes wins and sometime loses. His risk taking didn't work with delaying lockdowns, which costs many lives.     

The UK unofficially banned vaccine exports. They included a clause in a contract that the UK has to be supplied first. Gove said they the UK would not allow any vaccine exports until the UK needs are met. As a result the UK has not exported any vaccine doses. The EU banned only one small batch to Australia so far but allowed 40m doses to be exported, over 10m to the UK. The US has banned all exports so far. India has banned exports to the UK recently. Only the EU exports.     

I don't see how what were quoting, even if true is, is relevant to your claim that the EU is a total disaster.   

 

 

[yelims]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

You cant argue with them. France had a run-off presidential election in 2002 with Jean-Marie Le Pen's NF. Greece had Golden Dawn - they were strengthened by the evil Euro policy. Brussels Must Prevail - that supports local extremism. Luckily the UK have elections.

Except in UK the fascists actually got into power and are now chipping away at your rights

 

next up on the playlist is voter suppression and mysterious suicides of any journalists who speak up, more blatant corruption by “Etonian elites”

 

and ever worsening relationships with neighbours.

Edited March 19, 2021 by yelims

[winkie]

14 hours ago, dryrot said:

As a Brexiteer, even I could not have foreseen how catastrophic the EU has been. 

 

"The EU’s vaccine programme is a disaster of its own making. It was bad enough when it seemed that only European citizens would pay for Brussels’ incompetence with their lives. Now the EU’s malicious lies and lashing out are going to get a lot more people killed."

Why you say that, they halted it for a few days to check it out, now all good, can't see that is anything but sensible, there is more than one vaccine people can take and thankfully they all do a good safe  job.....trials were done very quickly because of the urgency, better safe than sorry.

Isn't it also news that India who manufactures millions of jabs is having trouble sourcing the components only made in the states.....the whole world needs vaccinating, all counties should be doing everything in their power to see all people are vaccinated....no one is safe until we are all safe and protected.

[yelims]

1 minute ago, winkie said:

Why you say that, they halted it for a few days to check it out, now all good, can't see that is anything but sensible, there is more than one vaccine people can take and thankfully they all do a good safe  job.....trials were done very quickly because of the urgency, better safe than sorry.

Isn't it also news that India who manufactures millions of jabs is having trouble sourcing the components only made in the states.....the whole world needs vaccinating, all counties should be doing everything in their power to see all people are vaccinated....no one is safe until we are all safe and protected.

I bet those doing their loudest giving out about EU (which actually has higher fully vaccinated percentage of population now and growing quickly) and are applauding the Tories literally half arsed vaccination programme, have already booked their holidays to Costa Chava or a cruise around med, I guess they haven’t thought through as to what happens if those countries are not vaccinated due to Boris choosing competition instead of cooperation.

[NoHPCinTheUK]

Nobody actually kills a democracy. A democracy just dies. And we blame those burying it. 

It is crystal clear that for a large part of the English population, democracy is dead. 

[NoHPCinTheUK]

14 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

That is really insulting and you know it. The UK may be misguided, and indeed alienating her neighbours (i agree to this). But the uk has never, never, had a significant far right movement. It went for brexit comfortable in its skin. Always certain, perhaps totally wrong yes, but not fascist. It resisted it totally in the 1930's whereas most european countries did not.

You know what- the EU countries are mostly disturbed by this all because they know what i have written to be true.

It’s extremely difficult to follow discussions where you give your opinions. It seems that all you’re only able to translating the topics into externalities, especially the mythical EU countries which seem to be a persistent thought of yours. It’s called obsession. 
Also, you display an extremely basic understanding of the complex politics of the time as it seems you think the equation is UK vs Fascism whereas the reality is actually much more complex than that. Mr. Churchill was a great fan of Mussolini, maybe just on paper, and you can’t really say the UK was immune to the fascism disease. We can’t write history with ifs and buts but we really don’t know what would have happened if the socialists/communist had taken control of the masses as it happened in Italy, Spain and Germany and how the British middle-upper class would react. 
Think about how many in the ER, BLM and EU moment would be ready to move a finger should anything would put the existence of the UK in peril, of course not directly threatening their lives. All we are seeing is just a natural reaction of a system which has been there for decades if not centuries. 
The exact same process is going on in France, where similar laws are being implemented and where they have the problem of several million people from a different background without any apparent interest in the Republique. 
I voted remain but it’s clear that what the EU is doing, above other things, maybe unintentionally, is to make the nation-state politically irrelevant. 
This is the actual fraction point. I do think several regions, big enough to have a weight in the global markets, but small enough to even think they could survive a outside a common market of which the EU is guarantor is a good development for the continent. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by NoHPCinTheUK

[slawek]

8 minutes ago, NoHPCinTheUK said:

Nobody actually kills a democracy. A democracy just dies. And we blame those burying it. 

It is crystal clear that for a large part of the English population, democracy is dead. 

It is an interplay between people and their elites. The corrupt elites, which we have now, speed up their process by exploiting people and transforming a country into a totalitarian system, where there is only one view allowed. I would even make a claim that any country can be turned into totalitarian system by their elites, if they wish so.