smash Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 The problem primarily is people understanding what they are voting for and latterly having the tools to fend off SM poison. The language of social media poison is mainstream politics and is now used in the house of commons. We have Tory MPs standing up and making a "point" by taking a pop at Marcus Rashford describing him as "virtue signalling on twitter..". When that last night of the proms nonsense was in full torrent the new MP for Beaconsfield stood up and attacked the BBC with "woke" jibes. Thats the cr&p that passes there now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 No, they installed Johnson because the Brexit Party topped the vote in May and they were terrified of the same thing happening in a General Election. It had nothing to do with votes in parliament. I disagree. If Labour had backed her deal it would have passed. She still had a big chunk of her party. The Tories would then have bided their time before dethroning her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 And now a no deal is going to make them poorer and take away even more of their jobs. But then, they voted for it............ That is still to be proven however. They certainly weren't facing any prospects of things getting better for them whilst we were part of the EU, so they will probably be less bothered than others if things do still keep getting worse, because as far as they were concerned, things were going to get worse anyway. A case of nothing ventured, nothing gained to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 You asked, who has made a threat? It was Admiral Lord West, you know that. That's not the UK govt, rollover. This country is full of retired rear admirals. They're chocabloc in Chichester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 And now a no deal is going to make them poorer and take away even more of their jobs. Perhaps it will. Perhaps it won't. If someone is unhappy doing the jobs available to them, are those jobs a belssing or a curse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Johnson really seemed to think that if he locked himself into the No Deal capsule and threw away the key, the EU would give in to him. The reports of desperate attempts to set up side negotiations with Merkel and Macron suggest he still believes it. That's no different to the gunboat pap, put out by "senior sources". A poster of your pedigree shouldn't buy into it. And even so, it can be played as a snub from the French and Germans and is counterproductive - will only help the dawn hate of the Brexit boosters. Not boxing clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 But many weren't feeling the country was gaining in prosperity from which they were benefitting. They felt such things as the NHS, schools, infrastructure and their living standards were declining as part of the EU. Hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs were lost through the Nineties and Noughties due to offshoring and outsourcing. The EU did nothing to protect them. They had no intention of going to work in the EU nor travelling around it, so freedom of movement wasn't a benefit to them in that regard and they were suffering from it in the reverse. And if they had the cheek to speak up about this, they were just called racists and ignored. And then the remain campaign failed to sell them any prospects of how voting for more of the same would improve any of this for them. Hardly a surprise they decided to vote for something different instead. I make no excuses for the respective governments that failed to address the social contract and spunk the money gained from our realtionship with the EU on follies (10bn for a NHS database that came to nowt for example or failing to implement controls on immigration through the benefits system etc). But those are internal problems of our making, not the EU. Politicians never blame themselves, rgey take the easy option. People seem to believe them. Seems that we have decided to do the easy thing..... blame the 'other' rather than address our core issues. Good luck with that....the outcome is close and we will see what Brexit will bring....we won't have to speculate for very long. We will see the relative benefits of in or out. I am confident that most people lives will be worse out of the EU. Let's see if that is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Social Justice League Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Perhaps it will. Perhaps it won't. If someone is unhappy doing the jobs available to them, are those jobs a belssing or a curse? Yeah true you have a point, plenty of non jobs that are not wanted or needed. Maybe we could think about introducing a citizens income now that we have our 'sovereignty' back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 So apparently there's this BIG DEADLINE tomorrow on the talks... Does anyone know what time it is? Farce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Making it up as they go along. Both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I've got more fixed deadlines for my groceries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 That said, woudn't you like... ...to know exactly what the UK govt and the EU are arguing about on the LPF, given the threat is we crash out with no deal? I would. Maybe. My suspicion is that the "Level Playing Field" argument must be a fundamental difference. My interpretation of LPF from the EU is requiring full compliance with the EU - just as it does from all members... and that, in short, this is the only cost of membership. If the EU insists on the LPF, it insists on all the negatives from membership - and is only willing to deny Britain benefits. This interpretation of LPF means that no-deal is inevitable... and 'fishing' is kept in the mix as a distraction. I've long thought that it isn't possible to negotiate anything while either the EU, or Britain, 'enjoy' the consequences of British EU membership. Until the base-line becomes 'no relationship' - it seems unlikely that mutually beneficial agreements can be found... because expectations are anchored on the status-quo. My guess is that the EU and the UK negotiators have known this for a long time... and that we're being told nothing because there isn't really anything to discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I disagree. If Labour had backed her deal it would have passed. She still had a big chunk of her party. The Tories would then have bided their time before dethroning her. How long do you think they would have taken? Do you think they would have allowed her to translate her WA into a long term trade deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 So apparently there's this BIG DEADLINE tomorrow on the talks... Does anyone know what time it is? Farce. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen set a new deadline for Sunday evening after meeting on Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Maybe. My suspicion is that the "Level Playing Field" argument must be a fundamental difference. You might be right. But don't you think that as a citizen - of either the UK or the EU - you have a right to see the detail of what they're spatting about BEFORE they decide it's no deal? Why haven't the EU published the texts? They either think they're fair and appropriate or they don't. No reason not to show us what they think is fair and reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 So apparently there's this BIG DEADLINE tomorrow on the talks... Does anyone know what time it is? Farce. You still hanging out for a final act where there is a happy ending I see. If there is a no-deal, what then in Howler land? Do you keep plugging the holes in HMS Brexit and sail on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Yeah true you have a point, plenty of non jobs that are not wanted or needed. Maybe we could think about introducing a citizens income now that we have our 'sovereignty' back. That would align with what appears to be the political direction. Do you happen to know what the various Communist authorities called their 'citizens income'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I make no excuses for the respective governments that failed to address the social contract and spunk the money gained from our realtionship with the EU on follies (10bn for a NHS database that came to nowt for example or failing to implement controls on immigration through the benefits system etc). But those are internal problems of our making, not the EU. Politicians never blame themselves, rgey take the easy option. People seem to believe them. Seems that we have decided to do the easy thing..... blame the 'other' rather than address our core issues. Good luck with that....the outcome is close and we will see what Brexit will bring....we won't have to speculate for very long. We will see the relative benefits of in or out. I am confident that most people lives will be worse out of the EU. Let's see if that is the case. I don't disagree with this and our MPs are definitely at fault, especially as they would try and shift blame onto the EU, rather than shoulder responsibility. So perhaps, if things do keep getting worse for them (which was going to happen anyway in their opinion if we remained, so nothing lost to them there) they will be happy feeling that now MPs will be easier to hold to account. Seeing Cameron sent packing by the EU with his tail between his legs would only have increased their feeling that the EU ran the UK, not the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 How long do you think they would have taken? Do you think they would have allowed her to translate her WA into a long term trade deal? No. I think she would have offered a GE or a 2nd ref at the end of the (longer) transition. That was one of the main reasons I backed the May deal, I thought it would acknowledge the referendum result but leave enough time for a reevaluation to be possible. We had to pass the WA first and be seen to be leaving. I think you agree with me - you're just reluctant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen set a new deadline for Sunday evening after meeting on Wednesday. What time in the evening? Is it a deadline on whether to agree more talks or call it quits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) I don't disagree with this and our MPs are definitely at fault, especially as they would try and shift blame onto the EU, rather than shoulder responsibility. So perhaps, if things do keep getting worse for them (which was going to happen anyway in their opinion if we remained, so nothing lost to them there) they will be happy feeling that now MPs will be easier to hold to account. Seeing Cameron sent packing by the EU with his tail between his legs would only have increased their feeling that the EU ran the UK, not the UK. Good, finally time to put to bed the hypothesis that the EU is to blame. Good luck seeing as we have the same government running things...especially so when we will be poorer with less scope to keep our services resourced. Seems to me like we will have learned alot from this, but at great expense to all of us. Edited December 12, 2020 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 You still hanging out for a final act where there is a happy ending I see. If there is a no-deal, what then in Howler land? Do you keep plugging the holes in HMS Brexit and sail on? Of course, I can't see why anyone would prefer no deal to a deal. I can't see the sense in deliberately making things worse than they need to be and I don't buy the "learning their lessons" stuff. But you know all that. If it goes no deal I plan to disengage fully from current affairs. I plan to do the same if we get a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 What time in the evening? Is it a deadline on whether to agree more talks or call it quits? It's possible, if the UK need more time to negotiate the EU will agree another deadline. Boris Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen to discuss whether to continue talks British prime minister Boris Johnson and European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen are to speak on Sunday to decide whether to continue negotiations to reach a trade deal and avoid a damaging shift to default terms. irishtimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Good, finally time to put to bed the hypothesis that the EU is to blame. Good luck seeing as we have the same government running things...especially so when we will be poorer with less scope to keep our services resourced. Seems to me like we will have learned alot from this, but at great expense to all of us. Apportioning blame is so passé. It's time to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 It's possible, if the UK need more time to negotiate the EU will agree another deadline. Not a deadline then. How are we supposed to take either party seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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