Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

45 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Marxism as a creed is evil and I guess your lesser travelled and unlike me Never had a parent who lived under it. 

Have you never lied ? Have you never thought I should of been a bit braver there ?, have you never bent The truth for your own ends ?

He with no sin etc

Classic Tory hater - no understanding of themselves or the human condition 

it’s a simple choice between hope (and yes  of course that is built off the crumbs of the 1%) and drag me back to the 70’s and bankrupt the country 

The good news is because of Mrs Thatcher I had opportunities - the question is will you under a highly taxed, business hating far left government in your prime earning years ?

Your comment says a lot about your intellect - I guess if I chose to I could work on my perceived character flaws ......??

Whataboutism in its finest. The topic at hand in my post is about the lying, shyster, coward, and his band of thicko supporters. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by MonsieurCopperCrutch

[Bruce Banner]

8 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Because ...hot off the press from one of my team 5 minutes ago who uses Southwest trains who kindly re unstated their strike this morning 

‘You get up earlier than usual, go & do your civic duty at the polling station, make a hurried dash to make the already delayed train strike train service - & the #!@%*\ing thing can’t even be bothered to run! Bah humbug South Western Railways! x’

The unions fund labour - why anyone would vote for a party funded by a minority single interest group is beyond me ....?

Hitler made the trains run on time.

[GregBowman]

6 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Hitler made the trains run on time.

He did that fair point 

[grasshopper]

On 10/12/2019 at 19:45, crouch said:

Yes that's what comes from having a vision and a plan; it needs autocracy to carry it out and this is the result, with the final insult being that it didn't work anyway.

That's a relief.

Some years ago, former Prime Minster, Sir John Major, said he didn't do the vision thing. This is a perfectly understandable position and response to the particular economic, social and political circumstances which human beings may find themselves in.

But there are other human beings, who using their intelligence, knowledge and ambition for human kind come to a different conclusion. And these individuals can inspire a free nation to to set its sights high on achieving the most difficult of challenges.

And President, John F. Kennedy was one such visionary leader. And one of the finest political speeches I have read is linked below.

Kennedy stood before Congress on May 25, 1961, and proposed that the US "should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." 

https://www.thoughtco.com/jfk-man-on-the-moon-speech-1779359

As we go to the polls today. The only remaining question is, what vision, if any, do we have for this great, but presently troubled country, in which we live.

[longgone]

First time I used the trains this week at rush hour. Had to fight to get on and push Inconsiderate chunts out of the way. Anyone who commutes into london needs their head testing.  What are these people earning to put up with this rubbish.

I fail to see how corbyn could be worse.

[Bruce Banner]

They're not allowed to campaign today, so BJ made sure the was filmed cuddling a cute dog .

[scottbeard]

3 minutes ago, grasshopper said:

As we go to the polls today. The only remaining question is, what vision, if any, do we have for this great, but presently troubled country, in which we live.

Collectively that's true.

But individually I feel vision for the country isn't my job.  I have a job, that I'm paid for, and it isn't that.

Forming, articulating, and implementing visions for the country is the POLITICIANS' job.  THEY are paid for that.  If Sir John "didn't do the vision thing" that's akin to me finding a clause in my job contract and just going "oh I don't do that".  That comment of yours lessens my respect for him.

My role in the process is just to look at the visions I'm presented, judge which vision I support, or least dislike, and put a cross in a box every few years. 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

42 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

When I was a Tory member I never dressed like the above, nor would I attend any event that required more than a normal business suit.

I was hamming it up a bit, but lots of DJs. 

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

32 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Because ...hot off the press from one of my team 5 minutes ago who uses Southwest trains who kindly re unstated their strike this morning 

‘You get up earlier than usual, go & do your civic duty at the polling station, make a hurried dash to make the already delayed train strike train service - & the #!@%*\ing thing can’t even be bothered to run! Bah humbug South Western Railways! x’

The unions fund labour - why anyone would vote for a party funded by a minority single interest group is beyond me ....?

Again. He’s talking about people voting for coward BJ. ?

[IMHAL]

2 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

I was hamming it up a bit, but lots of DJs. 

When I was a Tory member we would only walk outside if there was a carpet of plebs to trample on, thus ensuring that the soles of our Jimmy Choo's where kept in good order. 

[longgone]

When was dressing like a orchestral conductor considered elitist. No wonder the guy hides in walk in fridges. He had to do the same running from the bullies.

Maybe BJ will get iced today.

[crouch]

8 minutes ago, grasshopper said:

Some years ago, former Prime Minster, Sir John Major, said he didn't do the vision thing. This is a perfectly understandable position and response to the particular economic, social and political circumstances which human beings may find themselves in.

But there are other human beings, who using their intelligence, knowledge and ambition for human kind come to a different conclusion. And these individuals can inspire a free nation to to set its sights high on achieving the most difficult of challenges.

And President, John F. Kennedy was one such visionary leader. And one of the finest political speeches I have read is linked below.

Kennedy stood before Congress on May 25, 1961, and proposed that the US "should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." 

https://www.thoughtco.com/jfk-man-on-the-moon-speech-1779359

As we go to the polls today. The only remaining question is, what vision, if any, do we have for this great, but presently troubled country, in which we live.

Individuals have visions not systems and the context here is the system.

Utopian systems, such as that of the Soviet Union do have visions made concrete in the form of a plan. However, this always, or nearly always, demands autocracy because it denies free will and the ability to dissent that is the genus of progress - the plan is the plan and we must follow it - comrades.

When Major said that he had no vision he was espousing the Disraelian view of Conservatism, a creed rooted in patriotism, a creed rooted in the "somewhere". The creed of liberalism is the creed of "nowhere", a set of principles that applies anywhere, regardless of place.

Of course liberalism and its attendant notions of freedom are vital to economic progress, as progress by definition means moving forward from the present, and requires the ability to dissent ie freedom. It is an atomistic view at the polar opposite to the "vision and plan" notion.

Reconciling these two notions has been the source of much political debate in the last two hundred years.

[IMHAL]

33 minutes ago, crouch said:

Individuals have visions not systems and the context here is the system.

Utopian systems, such as that of the Soviet Union do have visions made concrete in the form of a plan. However, this always, or nearly always, demands autocracy because it denies free will and the ability to dissent that is the genus of progress - the plan is the plan and we must follow it - comrades.

When Major said that he had no vision he was espousing the Disraelian view of Conservatism, a creed rooted in patriotism, a creed rooted in the "somewhere". The creed of liberalism is the creed of "nowhere", a set of principles that applies anywhere, regardless of place.

Of course liberalism and its attendant notions of freedom are vital to economic progress, as progress by definition means moving forward from the present, and requires the ability to dissent ie freedom. It is an atomistic view at the polar opposite to the "vision and plan" notion.

Reconciling these two notions has been the source of much political debate in the last two hundred years.

But the system is run by individuals and these in turn are elected (in democracies), sometimes to fulfill a vision which generally requires a plan. To use the SR as an example is fine and maybe a good example of one that  can be considered a failure, but that could just as easily be attributed to the nature of the vision that they are trying to achieve and not the quest for a 'vision' or a plan to fulfill it per say.

[GrizzlyDave]

1 hour ago, grasshopper said:

Some years ago, former Prime Minster, Sir John Major, said he didn't do the vision thing. This is a perfectly understandable position and response to the particular economic, social and political circumstances which human beings may find themselves in.

But there are other human beings, who using their intelligence, knowledge and ambition for human kind come to a different conclusion. And these individuals can inspire a free nation to to set its sights high on achieving the most difficult of challenges.

And President, John F. Kennedy was one such visionary leader. And one of the finest political speeches I have read is linked below.

Kennedy stood before Congress on May 25, 1961, and proposed that the US "should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth." 

https://www.thoughtco.com/jfk-man-on-the-moon-speech-1779359

As we go to the polls today. The only remaining question is, what vision, if any, do we have for this great, but presently troubled country, in which we live.

We need a vision and plan for the future - otherwise we will continue to drift. Kennedy was extraordinary.

But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold. 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

14 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

But the system is run by individuals and these in turn are elected (in democracies), sometimes to fulfill a vision which generally requires a plan. To use the SR as an example is fine and maybe a good example of one that  can be considered a failure, but that could just as easily be attributed to the nature of the vision that they are trying to achieve and not the quest for a 'vision' or a plan to fulfill it per say.

 

Arguably the only significant forward planning done by the Government are the periodic Strategic Defence Reviews.

[zugzwang]

6 minutes ago, crouch said:

Individuals have visions not systems and the context here is the system.

Utopian systems, such as that of the Soviet Union do have visions made concrete in the form of a plan. However, this always, or nearly always, demands autocracy because it denies free will and the ability to dissent that is the genus of progress - the plan is the plan and we must follow it - comrades.

When Major said that he had no vision he was espousing the Disraelian view of Conservatism, a creed rooted in patriotism, a creed rooted in the "somewhere". The creed of liberalism is the creed of "nowhere", a set of principles that applies anywhere, regardless of place.

Of course liberalism and its attendant notions of freedom are vital to economic progress, as progress by definition means moving forward from the present, and requires the ability to dissent ie freedom. It is an atomistic view at the polar opposite to the "vision and plan" notion.

Reconciling these two notions has been the source of much political debate in the last two hundred years.

Liberalism is the creed of 'everywhere' not of nowhere; of universal rights, universal suffrage and equality before the law. Increasingly, it supports the moral and legal recognition of environmental rights and of finite natural resources.

Neoclassical free market economics is also a utopian system, a mechanistic view of society similar to that of the Soviet planners. Hyper-rational, self-equilibrating, and with a single, immortal representative agent indistinguishable from the State to account for all buying and selling decisions until the end of time. The Polish economist Oskar Lange believed that if the neoclassical model could be simulated virtually and run faster than real time then central planners would be able to anticipate and eliminate excess demand and surplus in the economy completely. He was very wrong, of course. Numerical simulation is an indispensable tool for doing economics, alright. But Adam Smith was mistaken, economies don't operate like simple machines.

[crouch]

12 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

But the system is run by individuals and these in turn are elected (in democracies), sometimes to fulfill a vision which generally requires a plan.

How is the notion of a vision made concrete in a plan consistent with freedom or democracy? In my view it isn't. It denies freedom to those who do not share the vision and denies the dissent that is the source of economic and social progress. And if a substantial part of the population do not share the vision how can it have any legitimacy?

An individual can have a vision and plan; a business can have a vision and plan - as many do. A society? I think not. 

[zugzwang]

5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 

Arguably the only significant forward planning done by the Government are the periodic Strategic Defence Reviews.

And the £1.4 trillion that's been borrowed and spent since 2008 keeping the lights on?

[guest_northshore]

11 hours ago, Bruce Banner said:

...How anyone could vote for BJ is beyond me, but they voted for Blair in their droves and I felt the same about him.

I live in an ultra safe Tory constituency so even though I will vote tactically to get the Tories out, in truth my vote is pretty meaningless.

All very depressing.

https://www.remainunited.org/

Same. I voted for Brexit. Increasingly regret it given the way society is fracturing. Have voted not-Conservative

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, crouch said:

How is the notion of a vision made concrete in a plan consistent with freedom or democracy? In my view it isn't. It denies freedom to those who do not share the vision and denies the dissent that is the source of economic and social progress. And if a substantial part of the population do not share the vision how can it have any legitimacy?

An individual can have a vision and plan; a business can have a vision and plan - as many do. A society? I think not. 

Perhaps something like a Citizen Assembly might help to generate a plan. I wonder if this is part of the remit of the Irish Citizens Assembly?

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

And the £1.4 trillion that's been borrowed and spent since 2008 keeping the lights on?

Is that forward planning, or crisis management?

[Chunketh]

15 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Nonsense.

https://www.iter.org/fr/newsline/-/2496

That was before TM pulled us out of Euratom.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nuclear-research-after-brexit

[crouch]

4 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Liberalism is the creed of 'everywhere' not of nowhere; of universal rights, universal suffrage and equality before the law. Increasingly, it supports the moral and legal recognition of environmental rights and of finite natural resources.

"Nowhere" and "everywhere" are effectively synonymous.

 

5 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Neoclassical free market economics is also a utopian system, a mechanistic view of society similar to that of the Soviet planners.

No I don't think so. Capitalism is based on the individual whereas the Soviet type system is based on the collective. A capitalist system is based on choice whereas a Soviet type system is based on the denial of choice.

A Soviet system is the ultimate point of the Hegelian process of dialectical materialism, a dynamic process in which structures change and evolve, not something based on the notion of individual free will.

[Peter Hun]

13 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Yep looks like I’m way out on the Lib Dem’s. I wasn’t predicting how toxic the revoke A50 message would be.

Revoke without a vote is offensive to both sides.

However, all parties manifestos are meaningless garbage because they are unenforceable, worthless lies. Why is why I want coalition hung parliament.

[Bruce Banner]

Just got back from voting (tactical, anti Tory). 

Raining hard so I took the car. Expected to have trouble parking, but no problem, drove into poling station and parked right by the door. Hardly anyone there voting, there were more staff than voters and no party workers at all. No exit poll. I guess that's because I live in an ultra safe Tory constituency.