IMHAL Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Riedquat said: Then you admit that you absolutely must consider how you think the EU might change, and that staying in it does not mean the status quo forever? Of course that is true. You have to take a reasoned view on where things will go based on evidence and what the current agreement allows. Edited December 10, 2019 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Exactly this. The only remain referendum majority was in 1975. The Common Market has changed just a bit since then. There is no such thing as a status quo. This is the whole point. A vote for Remain is a vote for the USofE. It is my understanding that our current agreement does not allow us to integrate further into the EU. As for the USofE becoming a reality, I doubt it, as most countries, like the UK, have made their feelings known to the contrary. More mutual cooperation, yes, but further integration, it's for the birds. Edited December 10, 2019 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Future direction of travel (for instance).. https://euobserver.com/opinion/144023 QMV makes sense in many ways. However, it's extension in this sort of area means the EU going full bore down the level playing field route and gradually eliminating any remnants of "jurisdictional competition" from the bloc. The only problem with this is that it is precisely that competition that has been a factor in the development of the European economy and its innovative thrust over the generations and by seeking to eliminate it they are potentially harming the long term growth prospects of the EU itself. Secondly it's in accord with Jean Monnet's idea of eliminating the national veto. That QMV might compromise vital national interests was recognised under the Luxembourg Compromise now dormant. The drift of the EU in this is to force members to effectively compromise their national interests, the end point of which will be the heavy qualification of national sovereignty in the case of vital interests or its complete obliteration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, IMHAL said: It is my understanding that our current agreement does not allow us to integrate further into the EU. As for the USofE becoming a reality, I doubt it, as most countries, like the UK, have made their feelings known to the contrary. More mutual cooperation, yes, but further integration, it's for the birds. Naivety on stilts! The EU is a centripetal organisation - it forces to the centre; that is its purpose. An opt out from a US of E is of no consequence; if 27 want it we would have to join it despite the opt out - or get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Like Jo Cox's murder - another 'in a nutshell' moment. BJ puts a journalists phone in his pocket. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-nhs-leeds-hospital-floor-jack-williment-phone-photo-a9239041.html The fall-out has been quite incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Sky News strap line is currently... "BORIS JOHNSON SAYS TACTICAL VOTING COULD LEAD TO A HUNG PARLIAMENT WHICH COULD PUT BREXIT AT RISK" So now we have it from the horse's mouth. There is everything to gain, vote tactically to prevent a Tory majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, pig said: Like Jo Cox's murder - another 'in a nutshell' moment. BJ puts a journalists phone in his pocket. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-nhs-leeds-hospital-floor-jack-williment-phone-photo-a9239041.html The fall-out has been quite incredible. Agreed. I think it says more about the media and the ridiculous world we live in than it says about Johnson though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Future direction of travel (for instance).. https://euobserver.com/opinion/144023 Yes that’s a good example. 21 minutes ago, IMHAL said: It is my understanding that our current agreement does not allow us to integrate further into the EU. As for the USofE becoming a reality, I doubt it, as most countries, like the UK, have made their feelings known to the contrary. More mutual cooperation, yes, but further integration, it's for the birds. As per the example above; further harmonisation is planned. An essential step for closer union. Let’s not forget the calls for an EU aircraft carrier and a “true EU army”. The direction of travel is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: So now we have it from the horse's mouth. So BJ is the biggest liar ever to have graced the planet but he's telling the truth here? It's project fear; if you vote tactically you'll endanger Brexit. Do wake up at the back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, crouch said: So BJ is the biggest liar ever to have graced the planet but he's telling the truth here? It's project fear; if you vote tactically you'll endanger Brexit. Do wake up at the back! BJ doesn't always lie, he says whatever he thinks will best promote his agenda, irrespective of whether it is a lie or the truth. It shows that the awareness of tactical voting has reached a level where Cummings is prepared to take the risk of promoting it further in the hope of shutting it down with a project fear warning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Yes that’s a good example. As per the example above; further harmonisation is planned. An essential step for closer union. Let’s not forget the calls for an EU aircraft carrier and a “true EU army”. The direction of travel is clear. Codswallop. I see the fantasists are all out to play today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, IMHAL said: I see the fantasists are all out to play today. Personally I don't mind if you're a fantasist; it's all grist to the mill as they say in polite circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: Personally I don't mind if you're a fantasist; it's all grist to the mill as they say in polite circles. My fantasy is one where we get to choose between a specific Brexit deal and the remain deal..... for a truly democratic outcome....... sadly that appears to be fantasy on stilts. Thwarted by the antidemocrats from the make 'Britain small again' parties and their pawns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, IMHAL said: My fantasy is one where we get to choose between a specific Brexit deal and the remain deal..... for a truly democratic outcome....... sadly that appears to be fantasy on stilts. Thwarted by the antidemocrats from the make 'Britain small again' parties and their pawns. If it was between Boris’s future FTA and no deal then that could have traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simhadri Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Here is Scotland, some Labour supporters urging people to vote SNP as Labour has less chance of beating Tories in Edinburgh. Nobody imagined Tories scaring Labour North of Hadrian wall. This is unbelievable. Seems Boris might pull a shock in Scotland AND Wales too. IF that happens, Tories will touch 350 mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Dave Beans said: If it was between Boris’s future FTA and no deal then that could have traction. That makes no sense other than to identify the best candidate to put up against Remain. Why? because there is no guarantee that the winner of that bout would also be in majority compared to Remain. It would have to be tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Thwarted by the antidemocrats from the make 'Britain small again' parties and their pawns. Absolutely, remainers want to submerge us into a group of 28 where we really are small and part of an undemocratic bloc; the sooner we're out the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, IMHAL said: That makes no sense other than to identify the best candidate to put up against Remain. Why? because there is no guarantee that the winner of that bout would also be in majority compared to Remain. It would have to be tested. We have already voted to leave.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 They lie to get what they want, they don't get what they want because they lie.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: Agreed. I think it says more about the media and the ridiculous world we live in than it says about Johnson though. Its the unicorn BJ is riding. He is not fit for office. Matt Hancock went on to lie about being punched - apparently assisted by senior journalists - and SM flooded with claims the sick child is fake. I guess you could argue its more Cummings than Johnson but really, what's the difference ? The sense in which I'd partly agree with you is that overall quite possibly more at stake here than Leave/Remain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Dave Beans said: We have already voted to leave.. And you can do it again. No one's telling you what to vote and Brexiteers seem to be confident the the people still favour leaving the EU, so I don't see the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: And you can do it again. No one's telling you what to vote and Brexiteers seem to be confident the the people still favour leaving the EU, so I don't see the problem. nope...are we going to rerun this election until the lib dems get a majority? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Just now, Dave Beans said: nope...are we going to rerun this election until the lib dems get a majority? If that's what you want then go for it but I think the majority of the people would disagree. What we need is a confirmatory vote between two specific options, a clearly defined mechanism to leave the EU and remain, ie revoke A50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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