pig Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, crouch said: DB is right; Labour is all over the place: they want a CU but say nothing about services which is hugely important and close alignment with the EU. It amounts to BRINO; all the responsibilities of being a member without being a member and able to influence things. Laughable. I agree with posters who say the status quo is no more; our relationship has changed fundamentally. Even if we stay now we will either leave eventually or the EU itself will decline and change into something quite different. Niall Ferguson has said that he believes the EU may well go the way of the Holy Roman Empire, a long drawn out death to insignificance and I agree with this. No. Rory Stewart was right when he said we are too fecked atm to settle on a relationship with the EU, and it reciprocates Merkels quite reasonable understanding of us as an unreliable partner. But “The Status Quo Is No More” has become another Leave Narnia, another way of dressing up infantilism. It’s just a fake barrier to a grown up relationship with our neighbours and a gormless excuse for why we must be exploited by the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, crouch said: If all politicians lie, and the current crop may be worse in this respect, then you don't really know what you'll be getting. To vote simply to get the Tories out is just as much a shot in the dark as voting Labour. Are you saying you prefer Labour's policies to Conservative because that's the only thing that makes sense? Again it's like talking to a brick wall.... I am voting tactically to get the Tories out because it's the best chance to stop BJ "Getting Brexit Done" by Christmas. https://twitter.com/remainutd?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile%3ARemainUtd&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.remainunited.org%2F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, crouch said: If all politicians lie, and the current crop may be worse in this respect, then you don't really know what you'll be getting. To vote simply to get the Tories out is just as much a shot in the dark as voting Labour. Are you saying you prefer Labour's policies to Conservative because that's the only thing that makes sense? Labour's economic policies are the only ones that make sense. The Tories intend to use public money to subsidise a third housing bubble. The Lib Dems want more 'expansionary fiscal contraction'. Fartrage wants a Hard Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pig said: Rory Stewart was right when he said we are too fecked atm to settle on a relationship with the EU, and it reciprocates Merkels quite reasonable understanding of us as an unreliable partner. Well, Stuart may be right; the atmosphere is somewhat febrile ATM. As far as being an unreliable partner what does this mean? If it means that we are not "team" players then that not only casts doubt about us but the EU in general because it is a moot point as to whether there are limits to the number of countries that can usefully co exist in a body like the EU. Can a body of 27/28 disparate members come together sensibly outside a fully federal structure and can you have a federal structure that includes 27/28 disparate members? 23 minutes ago, pig said: But “The Status Quo Is No More” has become another Leave Narnia, another way of dressing up infantilism. It’s just a fake barrier to a grown up relationship with our neighbours and a gormless excuse for why we must be exploited by the US. No it isn't; it's a statement of fact; a great deal of water has flown under the bridge in the last three years and we could never go back to where we were before. Edited December 2, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Again it's like talking to a brick wall.... I am voting tactically to get the Tories out because it's the best chance to stop BJ "Getting Brexit Done" by Christmas. https://twitter.com/remainutd?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile%3ARemainUtd&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.remainunited.org%2F Hardly. Brexit, if BJ gets back will be done by 31 January, not Christmas. In this case you appear to be saying that all you care about is stopping "BJ "Getting Brexit Done" by Christmas." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Labour's economic policies are the only ones that make sense. The Tories intend to use public money to subsidise a third housing bubble. The Lib Dems want more 'expansionary fiscal contraction'. Fartrage wants a Hard Brexit. I don't disagree with you but Labour's policies rely too much on MMT for my liking. Now MMT may be the direction we're all inching towards but that doesn't make it risk free or anything other than a final kick of the can - apart from negative rates that is and that's too much Alpha Centauri for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Just now, crouch said: Hardly. Brexit, if BJ gets back will be done by 31 January, not Christmas. In this case you appear to be saying that all you care about is stopping "BJ "Getting Brexit Done" by Christmas." "I think she's got it! By George she's got it!" First things first. Vote tactically to get the Tories out...... "You Know it makes sense". https://twitter.com/remainutd?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile%3ARemainUtd&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.remainunited.org%2F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: The only realistic alternative to BJ is "Wrecker" Corbyn. To install Corbyn due to animus against Johnson is bonkers, tactical voting or not. Ardent remainers will always choose to delay, regardless of consequence. That's why we have Boris as PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, thehowler said: Ardent remainers will always choose to delay, regardless of consequence. That's why we have Boris as PM. Let's be absolutely clear about this. I think that BJ is the worst of all the possible candidates for PM , totally untrustworthy and self serving. I can only agree with the poster who, a few weeks ago, posted that he'd vote for a "dog's backside" in preference to BJ. https://twitter.com/remainutd?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile%3ARemainUtd&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.remainunited.org%2F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) More signs the gap is closing... https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1201290446032572417/photo/1 Edited December 2, 2019 by thehowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Let's be absolutely clear about this. I think that BJ is the worst of all the possible candidates for PM , totally untrustworthy and self serving. I can only agree with the poster who, a few weeks ago, posted that he'd vote for a "dog's backside" in preference to BJ. https://twitter.com/remainutd?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile%3ARemainUtd&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.remainunited.org%2F If MPs had turned away from the remain dream and backed May - and not just the ERG, I'm talking about the rest of the house - then we would not have Boris as PM. So the guy you regard as the worst candidate for PM is currently PM because of the pursuit of remain. And there is a very real risk that if Boris is removed via a hung parliament, you will see someone like Raab or another, yet more hard-line leaver, emerge to represent the leave vote. Things can always get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 28 minutes ago, crouch said: Well, Stuart may be right; the atmosphere is somewhat febrile ATM. As far as being an unreliable partner what does this mean? If it means that we are not "team" players then that not only casts doubt about us but the EU in general because it is a moot point as to whether there are limits to the number of countries that can usefully co exist in a body like the EU. Can a body of 27/28 disparate members come together sensibly outside a fully federal structure and can you have a federal structure that includes 27/28 disparate members? It means as a UK citizen you look at the current PM (and others!) on telly with your head in your hands and wonder WTF must the rest of Europe think of us ? The rest of the world for that matter must think we are sick in the head. Hence Stewarts reasonable diagnosis that we may have to stand aside from the world until we recover... 28 minutes ago, crouch said: No it isn't; it's a statement of fact; a great deal of water has flown under the bridge in the last three years and we could never go back to where we were before. Happy with the philosophical maxim you never enter the same stream twice. But we can choose to be who we want to be. We can aspire to be the country we want to be. Silly Leave authoritarianism can go feck itself in a dark corner somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: DB is right; Labour is all over the place: they want a CU but say nothing about services which is hugely important and close alignment with the EU. It amounts to BRINO; all the responsibilities of being a member without being a member and able to influence things. Laughable. I agree with posters who say the status quo is no more; our relationship has changed fundamentally. Even if we stay now we will either leave eventually or the EU itself will decline and change into something quite different. Niall Ferguson has said that he believes the EU may well go the way of the Holy Roman Empire, a long drawn out death to insignificance and I agree with this. He also believes in NATO - which is in danger of crumbling well before the EU. Particularly if Russian asset Trump gets a second term. https://capx.co/free-exchange-niall-ferguson-on-europe-brexit-and-boris/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, thehowler said: If MPs had turned away from the remain dream and backed May - and not just the ERG, I'm talking about the rest of the house - then we would not have Boris as PM. So the guy you regard as the worst candidate for PM is currently PM because of the pursuit of remain. And there is a very real risk that if Boris is removed via a hung parliament, you will see someone like Raab or another, yet more hard-line leaver, emerge to represent the leave vote. Things can always get worse. Probably not Raab. He's got a new nickname 'Advent Calendar' because everyone thinks his days are numbered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, thehowler said: If MPs had turned away from the remain dream and backed May - and not just the ERG, I'm talking about the rest of the house - then we would not have Boris as PM. So the guy you regard as the worst candidate for PM is currently PM because of the pursuit of remain. And there is a very real risk that if Boris is removed via a hung parliament, you will see someone like Raab or another, yet more hard-line leaver, emerge to represent the leave vote. Things can always get worse. And we'd be out of the EU by now which is not what over half the country wants! Keep fighting and vote tactically to get the Tories out. https://www.remainunited.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: If all politicians lie, and the current crop may be worse in this respect, then you don't really know what you'll be getting. To vote simply to get the Tories out is just as much a shot in the dark as voting Labour. Are you saying you prefer Labour's policies to Conservative because that's the only thing that makes sense? It's much worse than that. The Tories cannot speak the truth - EVER! Traditionally, the best lies are intermingled with truth. It's seems Berlusconi Boris and the Maggoteers never got the memo. If you want a genuine Orwellian world - Vote Tory. “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” “Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Dave Beans said: If I thought that Labour were going to negotiate a sensible deal, then there would have been a slim chance that I would vote for them - but they don't. None of them are worth voting for. Your version of Leave was never really on the table DB. It was always the money. Just follow the money. Then you will see the real Brexit the Tories want in all its nakedness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, jonb2 said: He also believes in NATO - which is in danger of crumbling well before the EU. Particularly if Russian asset Trump gets a second term. https://capx.co/free-exchange-niall-ferguson-on-europe-brexit-and-boris/ Is that the same Niall Ferguson who published an uncritical celebration of Anglo-Saxon free market capitalism in 2008 timed uncannily to coincide with its worldwide collapse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, pig said: It means as a UK citizen you look at the current PM (and others!) on telly with your head in your hands and wonder WTF must the rest of Europe think of us ? The rest of the world for that matter must think we are sick in the head. Hence Stewarts reasonable diagnosis that we may have to stand aside from the world until we recover... Happy with the philosophical maxim you never enter the same stream twice. But we can choose to be who we want to be. We can aspire to be the country we want to be. Silly Leave authoritarianism can go feck itself in a dark corner somewhere. Yes - the rest of the world. Leavers, while in their cult fervour, have missed the optics of how this place looks to others. It has descended into a mad banana republic. A country that is now unstable with politicians whose whole mantra is based on the quicksand of bull shit and avarice. A completely unreliable partner unless you have something to gain - like foreigners buying assets cheap or corporations being allowed to burrow, like worm parasites, under the skin of 65 million people and suck their life blood. 50 years of North Korean austerity and isolation is what the country needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Is that the same Niall Ferguson who published an uncritical celebration of Anglo-Saxon free market capitalism in 2008 timed uncannily to coincide with its worldwide collapse? Yes, just another right wing fanatic spouting the virtues of a "I've got mine, feck you" society. Anybody that thinks Brexit is not a right wing creation is overdue a visit to the head screw clinic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 47 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: And we'd be out of the EU by now which is not what over half the country wants! Keep fighting and vote tactically to get the Tories out. https://www.remainunited.org/ So we stayed in at the expense of getting Boris as PM. My concern, as you know, is that you'll keep us in but at the expense of an even worse outcome than Boris. But I imagine you're ready to take that risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Just now, thehowler said: But I imagine you're ready to take that risk. That said, I understand how difficult it is to vote for Boris. It's tough all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, pig said: It means as a UK citizen you look at the current PM (and others!) on telly with your head in your hands and wonder WTF must the rest of Europe think of us ? The rest of the world for that matter must think we are sick in the head. It must certainly seem like the UK has had a collective nervous breakdown but "reliability" in this context does not refer to the probably temporary pathologies of the populace; it refers more to the steadfastness of government response, a different matter. This is less questionable than the political circus but to pretend that government is immune from the febrile atmosphere maybe taking it too far. 1 hour ago, pig said: Hence Stewarts reasonable diagnosis that we may have to stand aside from the world until we recover... Maybe, but, as I say, this does not necessarily refer to external relations. 1 hour ago, pig said: Silly Leave authoritarianism can go feck itself in a dark corner somewhere. I thought the whole point was to be more independent rather than go down the track of potential if not probable EU hegemony. It's arguable, and I would argue it, that you cannot keep 27 disparate countries together without some degree of authoritarianism and that the long term choice is effectively between an authoritarian federal state or an EU that is increasingly authoritarian and failing at the same time. Edited December 2, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 45 minutes ago, jonb2 said: It's much worse than that. The Tories cannot speak the truth - EVER! More hyperbole. You get worse! 46 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Traditionally, the best lies are intermingled with truth. It's seems Berlusconi Boris and the Maggoteers never got the memo. If you want a genuine Orwellian world - Vote Tory. True as far as propaganda goes but frankly they're all the same; the Tories are no better and no worse than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 hours ago, crouch said: The only realistic alternative to BJ is "Wrecker" Corbyn. To install Corbyn due to animus against Johnson is bonkers, tactical voting or not. BoJo the Clown is far worse than Corbyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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