thecrashingisles Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, allfiredup said: Neutral please. So you don’t think England and Scotland should be part of a political union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Most sense at the moment is coming out of the HoL not HoC.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, grasshopper said: Your quite right, there has always been a Brexit deal that could have been negotiated through parliament. But the Tory right are not remotely interested in that. They want the ability to restructure the UK economy more closely aligned with the US free market model. I really am tired of listening to Tory MPs like Gove and Raab repeating ad nauseum that most MPs elected to this Parliament were elected on a manifesto to deliver Brexit so it should have been delivered by now. Any intelligent person knows that the two forms of Brexit in the Conservative and Labour Parties manifestos are quite distinct and MPs from either party are not obligated to vote for a deal that they dont think appropriate and not in the best interest of their constituents and the country. Agree with all of this. Given the 48/52 split some sort of EEA/EFTA with a sensible discussion over how to deal with the RoI/NI border would have had one I would think. Maybe even a little more Brexit would have passed. I'm a remainer and I would have accepted this. What I do not accept is the ERG/Brexit party type Brexit even though both are a Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, grasshopper said: Any intelligent person knows that the two forms of Brexit in the Conservative and Labour Parties manifestos are quite distinct and MPs from either party are not obligated to vote for a deal that they dont think appropriate and not in the best interest of their constituents and the country. By implication you can actually say what Labour's Brexit policy is? Good man; you've achieved the impossible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: Yes, but in the case of Brexit it is very much owned by the Cons. Just as it is for the LibDems? All parties will adapt for a changing voter base. Checkout this Rollercoaster: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, winkie said: Soon we will be cutting our own and each others hair....and baking our own speciality breads.? … Brexit barter world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: Just as it is for the LibDems? All parties will adapt for a changing voter base. Checkout this Rollercoaster: My recollection is that the LibDems didn't have anything at all to do with starting this. Happy to be proved wrong though... Sure they have gained from it but that's just come out in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 The Tory Brexit is a different Brexit to the Brexit party Brexit.....even Brexit is divided within Brexit.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, grasshopper said: Your quite right, there has always been a Brexit deal that could have been negotiated through parliament. But the Tory right are not remotely interested in that. They want the ability to restructure the UK economy more closely aligned with the US free market model. I really am tired of listening to Tory MPs like Gove and Raab repeating ad nauseum that most MPs elected to this Parliament were elected on a manifesto to deliver Brexit so it should have been delivered by now. Any intelligent person knows that the two forms of Brexit in the Conservative and Labour Parties manifestos are quite distinct and MPs from either party are not obligated to vote for a deal that they dont think appropriate and not in the best interest of their constituents and the country. The indicative vote sessions back in March (?) provided an opportunity for all MP's to achieve one Leave option. It was farce fiasco feck-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: Can you name one where it works well? Genuinely not challenging but just trying to understand some examples. Again, I like your aspiration but my experience is that generally mankind is not very nice to each other and has been like that forever. I'm not an expert but Switzerland springs to mind. And i agree with your mankind comment, which is an argument against open borders/FOM/Empires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 14 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: Agree with all of this. Given the 48/52 split some sort of EEA/EFTA with a sensible discussion over how to deal with the RoI/NI border would have had one I would think. Maybe even a little more Brexit would have passed. I'm a remainer and I would have accepted this. What I do not accept is the ERG/Brexit party type Brexit even though both are a Brexit. +1 Flexcit fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: … Brexit barter world? Many different types of money.....many different ways of saving money, spending less and wasting money you haven't got, or feel have now got less of, paying/working more for......or need and want to use it in a better more productive way......force changes on people people will make big changes to compensate, not all will be economically friendly....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: So you don’t think England and Scotland should be part of a political union? I understand you have wet dreams thinking about splitting the UK up, and its a separate issue but i will address. The UK has been around a very long time and I think it works fairly well especially seeing as we share an Island < very important aspect that is also a big part of Brexit (and Irish issues). But i am also very happy to listen to parts of the UK that want to separate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, allfiredup said: I'm not an expert but Switzerland springs to mind. And i agree with your mankind comment, which is an argument against open borders/FOM/Empires Switzerland has aligned with the EU. They're part of EFTA. They have freedom of movement with the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, allfiredup said: I understand you have wet dreams thinking about splitting the UK up, and its a separate issue but i will address. The UK has been around a very long time and I think it works fairly well especially seeing as we share an Island < very important aspect that is also a big part of Brexit (and Irish issues). But i am also very happy to listen to parts of the UK that want to separate. Do you ever travel outside your box?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: +1 Flexcit fan I think that makes 6 of us on board now. ? Only a few million to go... We could have started with that and seen how we got on. With time we could have gone in either direction. I believe Switzerland did something similar. They started out in EEA/EFTA (may have even been founding members) but through a referendum left the EEA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: My recollection is that the LibDems didn't have anything at all to do with starting this. Happy to be proved wrong though... Sure they have gained from it but that's just come out in the process. LibDems were in coalition with the blues for five years but that wasn't my point. It is all about the people. All political parties must adapt to survive based on the UK voter base and their parliamentary performance. What happened at the end of March? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simvastatin Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 hour ago, wish I could afford one said: Whether we like it or not the world is not a fluffy place and countries need to form pacts with other countries hopefully in alignment with there values. Today we have the US group, the EU group, the Russia group and a China group as the majors. Which group do you want to align with? The problem is, we have two groups we have so much in common with it is very tough to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Just now, Sheeple Splinter said: LibDems were in coalition with the blues for five years but that wasn't my point. It is all about the people. All political parties must adapt to survive based on the UK voter base and their parliamentary performance. What happened at the end of March? Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: The indicative vote sessions back in March (?) provided an opportunity for all MP's to achieve one Leave option. It was farce fiasco feck-up. BBC News - Sensible compromise could break Brexit deadlock - Stephen Kinnock https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49648319 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: The indicative vote sessions back in March (?) provided an opportunity for all MP's to achieve one Leave option. It was farce fiasco feck-up. They did pass the Brady amendment. The removal of the backstop in the proposed deal is important for some MPs. But a CU came close too in the indicative round - by three votes, I think. And thanks to the Letwin amendment, MPs are now under no pressure to side either way with the Boris deal. They can chop and change the bill as much as they want and not worry about leaving until next year. There's already a lot of talk about a CU amendment to the WAB this week. I imagine the DUP would vote for it, and quite a few of the Labour rebels. If that happens, we're back to the old GE will they, won't they... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 minute ago, prozac said: The problem is, we have two groups we have so much in common with it is very tough to decide. When we boil it down to values I wonder if we really do. I've seen how easy it is for a person to have their life destroyed in the US via something as simple as an injury. I believe there should be safety net. I've seen the job expectations espoused by US corporations. Life should be about more than selling your soul to a corporation. I believe we have a climate emergency so can't support the US model of just consume it all without thinking of alternatives. Of course our current approach causes other problems which I'm not supporting or hiding from. I'm just saying if I was asked to go with the EU or US model with what i know today I'd pick the EU every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: Switzerland has aligned with the EU. They're part of EFTA. They have freedom of movement with the EU. They've done well remaining neutral in global conflicts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, thehowler said: They did pass the Brady amendment. The removal of the backstop in the proposed deal is important for some MPs. But a CU came close too in the indicative round - by three votes, I think. And thanks to the Letwin amendment, MPs are now under no pressure to side either way with the Boris deal. They can chop and change the bill as much as they want and not worry about leaving until next year. There's already a lot of talk about a CU amendment to the WAB this week. I imagine the DUP would vote for it, and quite a few of the Labour rebels. If that happens, we're back to the old GE will they, won't they... Next step EEA/EFTA it is...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allfiredup Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, wish I could afford one said: When we boil it down to values I wonder if we really do. I've seen how easy it is for a person to have their life destroyed in the US via something as simple as an injury. I believe there should be safety net. I've seen the job expectations espoused by US corporations. Life should be about more than selling your soul to a corporation. I believe we have a climate emergency so can't support the US model of just consume it all without thinking of alternatives. Of course our current approach causes other problems which I'm not supporting or hiding from. I'm just saying if I was asked to go with the EU or US model with what i know today I'd pick the EU every time. And i'd pick the UK model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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