GrizzlyDave Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Johnson is saying whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear and it changes from day to day. So he’s a politician then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: So he’s a politician then? A propagandist for the City of London first and foremost. And for people like the sinister and elusive Barclay Brothers who love the UK so much they file their taxes in Bermuda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, crouch said: I'm pleased you enjoyed the video. But you haven't twigged it. The subject is what has gone wrong and no one would deny that; it's been an absolute debacle. But it's history. When it comes to the substance he is much more nuanced. He reminds people of how fiendishly complex it all is and how this is under appreciated by the politicians. And of course he's correct but again he's criticising the actors not the play. But, contrary to what you say, he doesn't say that Brexit is stupid; he wouldn't because he's a diplomat. Complex yes; time consuming yes; difficult yes. But stupid - that's something else. In the Newsnight interview he says, quite rightly that there will be difficulties - many - even tumult; but he is very optimistic abut the long term for the UK because I believe he thinks that we will indeed leave the EU. If you watch the vid I posted he doesn't have to say it's stupid.... he says it so much better.... because he's a diplomat. You are nice enough, but you are a real fruitcake, and pretty much wrong headed on every level. Edited June 12, 2019 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: So he’s a politician then? Yes, a career politician. A pox on the lot of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 18 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: That's a pretty standard redundancy package. Why would anyone who is any ambitious/good, not take the money and stay in London. As a result the provincial offices of these relocated firms are populated by second raters, often leading to outsourcing of much of the high level/creative work often back to London based firms. Not up here it isn't. When you look back at the 6-figure payouts some got in the 1970's and 80's, and these days we are very often on the statutory minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: ... but he is very optimistic abut the long term for the UK because I believe he thinks that we will indeed leave the EU. If he's optimistic about the long term, it's not because he thinks we will leave the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 16 hours ago, Dorkins said: The guy claiming to have burnt these votes also said he was following a government directive to do it. File under fantasist. I was sent that news by email. I just thought I would post it to stir things up. Whatever the truth of it, there is a petition about electoral fraud been launched. When you have 10,000 postal votes anything can happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, crouch said: You seem not to have seen the last few minutes of the Newsnight interview. See from 6.49 minutes to the end. As I have said repeatedly Brexit is for the longer term and he is very optimistic about the long term. As to putting spin on it because it's his job of course it isn't his job anymore and that is why he can be so frank. Are you optimistic that it going to be possible to maintain the level of political consensus and discipline necessary to execute a successful Brexit over a 10 year period? If you've listened to Ivan Rogers you will know that he is not optimistic about this, and believes that the risk of No Deal is much higher than most people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 48 minutes ago, smash said: That will be the "constructive ambiguity" strategy again then. It will allow him to do a merry dance of "what I actually said was..." According to Laura Kuenssberg he has already promised the job of Home Secretary to four people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, kzb said: Not up here it isn't. When you look back at the 6-figure payouts some got in the 1970's and 80's, and these days we are very often on the statutory minimum. Who are we? Just about all public sector jobs have 1 month per year, most decent/professional level private sector jobs offer something similar. Non public sector minimum pay type jobs have always had poor redundancy terms. The point is trying to move jobs out of London when it is clearly is the centre of gravity for that type of work is self defeating as the people you want to come don't have to and probably won't. The fact that only the public sector can afford to do this forced relocation is itself a bit of a giveaway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: If he's optimistic about the long term, it's not because he thinks we will leave the EU. You may be right on this, Quote Remainer MPs have tabled a Commons motion designed to block No Deal. The source said: 'We are flexing our muscles to remind Boris and anyone else that they cannot do this.' Remainer MPs will mount an all-out bid to block No Deal today after Speaker John Bercow bent parliamentary rules to help them. But his decision means MPs will be asked to vote on a Commons motion today which would give pro-Remain MPs control of the parliamentary timetable on June 25. If it is passed, a Bill will be brought forward within weeks that could make it illegal to suspend parliament to force a No Deal - a proposal mooted by some Tory hopefuls. Rebels say they could broaden the legislation to ban crashing out altogether. Daily Mail Edited June 12, 2019 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 51 minutes ago, zugzwang said: A propagandist for the City of London first and foremost. And for people like the sinister and elusive Barclay Brothers who love the UK so much they file their taxes in Bermuda. And looking pretty damn likely as the next prime minister of the UK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 2 hours ago, smash said: I've watched a couple of those Ivan Rogers talks/interviews including the one you have mentioned where he says that Norway and Switzerland are in constant discussions with the EU.Do you think that the expectations that the public have been led toward about what Brexit will mean, how long it will take etc. accurately reflect what the reality will turn out to be? Candidly - no. I think the truth been obscured and if anyone should know it's Ivan Rogers because he implies this in virtually all his talks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Boris Island ! The Garden Bridge ! Brexit is Going to be Easy Because Germany Wants to Sell Cars ! Jokes About Colonial Days Whilst Visiting Previously Occupied Nations as Foreign Secretary ! Me for Leader and PM ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, smash said: Boris Island ! The Garden Bridge ! Brexit is Going to be Easy Because Germany Wants to Sell Cars ! Jokes About Colonial Days Whilst Visiting Previously Occupied Nations as Foreign Secretary ! Me for Leader and PM ! European leaders can “go whistle” if they expect Britain to pay a divorce bill for withdrawing from the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: If you watch the vid I posted he doesn't have to say it's stupid.... he says it so much better.... because he's a diplomat. You are nice enough, but you are a real fruitcake, and pretty much wrong headed on every level. You're wrong. In fact in all of his videos he never says whether Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, nor I think does he even imply it. He severely criticises the way it has been handled - the process - which is correct but: firstly he believes we will leave the EU and secondly he is optimistic about the country in the long term. After all those videos I have no idea whether he would have voted to stay or leave. I'm not the only one whose wrong headed. Edited June 12, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Feck Business ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, crouch said: You're wrong. In fact in all of his videos he never says whether Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, nor I think does he even imply it. He severely criticises the way it has been handled - the process - which is correct but: firstly he believes we will leave the EU and secondly he is optimistic about the country in the long term. After all those videos I have no idea whether he would have voted to stay or leave. Where do you get the sense that he is optimistic that a badly-handled Brexit will lead to a positive outcome? Here for example he says that the downside of getting out is "pretty severe and the way in which we're doing it makes it potentially more severe". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: Are you optimistic that it going to be possible to maintain the level of political consensus and discipline necessary to execute a successful Brexit over a 10 year period? If you've listened to Ivan Rogers you will know that he is not optimistic about this, and believes that the risk of No Deal is much higher than most people think. As far as the politics is concerned the impact of Brexit may well be on the political system far more than economically. The country has been moving away from a two party system for years now and Brexit may well sound the death knell of that system. I don't believe that the Brexit party will last but that doesn't mean that we'll return to status quo ante because I don't think we will. What may well emerge is a coalition type structure which may be advantageous in that it is far more likely to be able to accommodate a long term view of things than the current Punch and Judy show. Will we have the level of political consensus and discipline necessary to execute a successful Brexit over a 10 year period? Good question. I think we should have some sort of long term plan or at least agreement on where we are going as a nation. Will we get it? I have considerable doubts. As to the next ten years Rogers even uses the word tumultuous and I think he may well be right but he is optimistic about the longer term seeing that we have considerable strength in some areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, crouch said: As far as the politics is concerned the impact of Brexit may well be on the political system far more than economically. Only if it is managed in such a way as to minimise the impact on the economy. A no deal Brexit will not do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: Where do you get the sense that he is optimistic that a badly-handled Brexit will lead to a positive outcome? I don't think he does. His optimism concerns the fact that we have a malleable political structure that has shown its capacity for change over many years and can therefore meet the challenge of Brexit without an out and out revolution. Furthermore he sees that in certain economic areas we have strengths which can be developed and this is the source of his optimism. He also observes that there are weaknesses of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: Only if it is managed in such a way as to minimise the impact on the economy. A no deal Brexit will not do that. I can't comment on that but there are different version of no deal so I'm not sure that it can be ruled out in principle. What has surprised me is that we did not start full on no deal preparations long ago and that the EU has not done likewise ( of course they may have but I'm unaware of that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, crouch said: Candidly - no. I think the truth been obscured and if anyone should know it's Ivan Rogers because he implies this in virtually all his talks.. You obviously haven't invested too much in brexit but I suspect that a large section of the population haven't piled in behind it with such caution. When I watch things like Brexit party rallies or look at content on social media I get a very strong sense of the emotional and this leads me to conclude that many will end up acutely disappointed. I'm imagining people in the BBC Question Time audience in five years time saying things like "why is the Government sending a trade delegation to the EU?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: I can't comment on that but there are different version of no deal so I'm not sure that it can be ruled out in principle. What has surprised me is that we did not start full on no deal preparations long ago and that the EU has not done likewise ( of course they may have but I'm unaware of that). You can't prepare for no deal at the same time as you deny the consequences of no deal. For example, how do you prepare for no deal in Northern Ireland? Would you want to be the contractor building the customs infrastructure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Just now, crouch said: You're wrong. In fact in all of his videos he never says whether Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing, nor I think does he even imply it. He severely criticises the way it has been handled - the process which is correct but: firstly he believes we will leave the EU and secondly he is optimistic about the country in the long term. After all those videos I have no idea whether he would have voted to stay or leave. I'm not the only one whose wrong headed. Ivan is a practical and clever sort... he accepts the reality of the current situation and he takes a pragmatic stance on how to make the best of the current situation. It is evident that he thinks Brexit was handled badly. He thinks it could have been handled better but he also points out that better is not better (economically) than the status quo. He makes no comment on the process (that I can see)..... other than to say that a Brexit model was not chosen prior to the referendum and it was not chosen deliberatly so as not to fracture the Leave vote. An error that is continuing to hamper and hound us. Since you cannot enact all flavours of Brexit that is tantamount to the votes for Brexit being elicited under false pretenses. Quite why you are so optimistic when he has pointed out the multitude of risks going forward and the train wreck that has been our approach to the process and the negotiations is beyond me...almost. You are a Eurogeddon'ista afterall. I find your level of delusion very hard going in the face of those videos outlined by Sir Ivan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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