Bruce Banner Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Both parties manifestos said they would achieve a good deal., the Tories went further promising in Parliament a deal at least as good as staying in. At the moment there is no majority for any specific form of Brexit. As you should know, the referendum was advisory requiring only that MP's consider the result when deciding how to vote. As long as they do that they are respecting the result. If I was an MP I would consider the result of the referendum - a small majority for a Brexit in a vote held 3 years ago for a Brexit that has proved to be impossible to deliver. I would also consider the fact that dozens of polls taken over the past year have showed a stable lead for Remain and that polls for any specific form of Leave v Remain show 60% of people in favour of Remain. Nice try, but you can't argue with a closed mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, excon said: I think this is getting a little childish is it not? That you and fellow remainers claim to know the minds of the UK electorate is straight out the ballacks to Brexit playbook Actually, I voted to leave but have subsequently changed my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, Bruce Banner said: Nice try, but you can't argue with a closed mind. Try a mirror buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Actually, I voted to leave but have subsequently changed my mind. Sure you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 41 minutes ago, pig said: Name me one moment in the last 3 years of abject clusterfeck that the referendum was ignored ? March 29th 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, excon said: Sure you did. Actually I did, but there's no point trying to convince you so, toodle pip, I'm off to the beach for a swim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, excon said: March 29th 2019. Oh I see - so everybody just er took their mind of the ball for a day and forgot to Brexit ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 44 minutes ago, yelims said: No wonder you are such a miserable person, you are getting paid peanuts BTW linkedin has better sample based on real data Not a world away from the other other figures. But if you want to use them - fine. Looks like similar wages London/Dublin. Not exactly your grass is greener anecdote. (Though I’m sure Irish grass is greener with all the rain). Actually I’m a contractor, and I’m also not a software engineer. I thought it might be a helpful comparable. Don’t worry about me buddy. I’m doing fine. 25 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: I am paying senior software developers £90k, plus a good pension or £575pd on a 12 month contract I’m not sure what that tells us other than you can earn good money in London. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, excon said: March 29th 2019. TM put a deal to Parliament that purportedly met all of the red lines set out in the Conservative manifesto. It was voted down by the ERG. It wasn't Remainers that stopped Brexit......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: TM put a deal to Parliament that purportedly met all of the red lines set out in the Conservative manifesto. It was voted down by the ERG. It wasn't Remainers that stopped Brexit......... The Withdrawal agreement isn't actually leaving the EU, it's 39 billion for the possibility of trade talks with the added bonus being we never leave the customs union unless the EU agree to it. It was to paraphrase the mad harridan "a bad deal". The default in law at that point was to leave without one, but that never happened. It most certainly was remainers who prevented us leaving on the 29th, you may have been aware of some of the votes in parliament to that effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 36 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Both parties manifestos said they would achieve a good deal., the Tories went further promising in Parliament a deal at least as good as staying in. At the moment there is no majority for any specific form of Brexit. As you should know, the referendum was advisory requiring only that MP's consider the result when deciding how to vote. As long as they do that they are respecting the result. If I was an MP I would consider the result of the referendum - a small majority for a Brexit in a vote held 3 years ago for a Brexit that has proved to be impossible to deliver. I would also consider the fact that dozens of polls taken over the past year have showed a stable lead for Remain and that polls for any specific form of Leave v Remain show 60% of people in favour of Remain. If you were an MP you'd be a remainer, like 70% of them. You'd be wishing for a 3rd referendum to take responsibility out of your hands, but terrified of the effect on your lifelong duopoly party career - as the mere act of holding a 3rd referendum will probably destroy the blue wing, and possibly the red wing. You'd also be worried about declaring that Parliament is not capable, and that the people must decide instead of Parliament - and the long term effect that this would have on your claim to be representative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: A transition period was assumed in the Act, so yes. The bulk of it was about transferring EU law so there was continuity. So what's the downside of Farage for a Remainer? We're already being told we must leave the EU, so why should we be afraid of Farage? +1 If we are going to leave I want Farage as PM. I want someone who will be held responsible. I don't want any squirming Leavers to have a get-out where they can blame someone else..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, excon said: The Withdrawal agreement isn't actually leaving the EU, it's 39 billion for the possibility of trade talks with the added bonus being we never leave the customs union unless the EU agree to it. It was to paraphrase the mad harridan "a bad deal". The default in law at that point was to leave without one, but that never happened. It most certainly was remainers who prevented us leaving on the 29th, you may have been aware of some of the votes in parliament to that effect? If the WA had been voted through then we would have left the institutions of the EU - it is "actually" leaving the EU (albeit on terms you may not like). Had the ERG supported the govt then the WA would have received a majority in Parliament. The Remain motions you refer to tried to rule out a "no deal Brexit" - the referendum question did not state that there would be a "no deal Brexit" just that there would be "Brexit". In fact Farage, Davis etc. made it very clear that in their view we would "easily" get a deal during the 2016 campaign. I don't see how with this set of facts you can claim that the 2016 result is a mandate for a "no deal" Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: In fact Farage, Davis etc. made it very clear that in their view we would "easily" get a deal during the 2016 campaign. I don't see how with this set of facts you can claim that the 2016 result is a mandate for a "no deal" Brexit. Was the "deal" Farage and Davis mentioned as a deal after we had left rather than the process of leaving - it was the basis of a long term trade agreement? That was my impression. Also the ballot paper was not qualified; it just said stay or leave; it did not specify the basis on which we were to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, highYield said: If you were an MP you'd be a remainer, like 70% of them. You'd be wishing for a 3rd referendum to take responsibility out of your hands, but terrified of the effect on your lifelong duopoly party career - as the mere act of holding a 3rd referendum will probably destroy the blue wing, and possibly the red wing. You'd also be worried about declaring that Parliament is not capable, and that the people must decide instead of Parliament - and the long term effect that this would have on your claim to be representative. It’s certainly the most appealing aspect of a third referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said: If the WA had been voted through then we would have left the institutions of the EU - it is "actually" leaving the EU (albeit on terms you may not like). Had the ERG supported the govt then the WA would have received a majority in Parliament. The Remain motions you refer to tried to rule out a "no deal Brexit" - the referendum question did not state that there would be a "no deal Brexit" just that there would be "Brexit". In fact Farage, Davis etc. made it very clear that in their view we would "easily" get a deal during the 2016 campaign. I don't see how with this set of facts you can claim that the 2016 result is a mandate for a "no deal" Brexit. "If the WA had been voted through then we would have left the institutions of the EU " No it is not, please do not pretend otherwise, unless the EU agreed with our solution over the Irish border issue we would be in a customs for ever with no recourse. All the main players spelled out it was leaving the single market, customs union, the whole shebang. If someone was put in place in 2016 who did not want to subvert the referendum result by cooking up BRINO with the EU like Farage or Davis then a free trade agreement could have been achieved in the last 3 years. But May didn't want that or parliament, the plan was clearly try and pull the wool over peoples eyes and tie us to the EU forever in the hope the population is too dumb to notice. Given the momentum behind the Brexit party in it's short 4 week existence that plan looks like it's going to massively rebound on this parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 22 minutes ago, highYield said: If you were an MP you'd be a remainer, like 70% of them. You'd be wishing for a 3rd referendum to take responsibility out of your hands, but terrified of the effect on your lifelong duopoly party career - as the mere act of holding a 3rd referendum will probably destroy the blue wing, and possibly the red wing. You'd also be worried about declaring that Parliament is not capable, and that the people must decide instead of Parliament - and the long term effect that this would have on your claim to be representative. If I was an MP, I would be a Remainer if staying in the EU offered a better path forward for the UK and a Brexiteer if leaving did. As no one has been able to present a credible vision for Brexit that offers a better future for the UK than Remaining, I would vote for revoking A50 and holding a General Election 6 months later at which the parties could present their vision for the future - with or without Brexit. I would have no interest in prolonging my career as an MP, as wouldn't enjoy the job (or living on an MP's salary), but would have no problem saying to the people that the referendum was flawed, the promised Brexit cannot be delivered, there is a stable majority for Remaining over any specific Brexit and revoking A50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: If I was an MP, I would be a Remainer if staying in the EU offered a better path forward for the UK and a Brexiteer if leaving did. As no one has been able to present a credible vision for Brexit that offers a better future for the UK than Remaining, I would vote for revoking A50 and holding a General Election 6 months later at which the parties could present their vision for the future - with or without Brexit. I would have no interest in prolonging my career as an MP, as wouldn't enjoy the job (or living on an MP's salary), but would have no problem saying to the people that the referendum was flawed, the promised Brexit cannot be delivered, there is a stable majority for Remaining over any specific Brexit and revoking A50. Which is why you're not an MP, and why MPs are quite different to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 19 minutes ago, excon said: "If the WA had been voted through then we would have left the institutions of the EU " No it is not, please do not pretend otherwise, unless the EU agreed with our solution over the Irish border issue we would be in a customs for ever with no recourse. All the main players spelled out it was leaving the single market, customs union, the whole shebang. If someone was put in place in 2016 who did not want to subvert the referendum result by cooking up BRINO with the EU like Farage or Davis then a free trade agreement could have been achieved in the last 3 years. But May didn't want that or parliament, the plan was clearly try and pull the wool over peoples eyes and tie us to the EU forever in the hope the population is too dumb to notice. Given the momentum behind the Brexit party in it's short 4 week existence that plan looks like it's going to massively rebound on this parliament. Geography and economic reality is what will tie us to the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, highYield said: Which is why you're not an MP, and why MPs are quite different to you. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, excon said: "If the WA had been voted through then we would have left the institutions of the EU " No it is not, please do not pretend otherwise, unless the EU agreed with our solution over the Irish border issue we would be in a customs for ever with no recourse. All the main players spelled out it was leaving the single market, customs union, the whole shebang. If someone was put in place in 2016 who did not want to subvert the referendum result by cooking up BRINO with the EU like Farage or Davis then a free trade agreement could have been achieved in the last 3 years. But May didn't want that or parliament, the plan was clearly try and pull the wool over peoples eyes and tie us to the EU forever in the hope the population is too dumb to notice. Given the momentum behind the Brexit party in it's short 4 week existence that plan looks like it's going to massively rebound on this parliament. I agree, you're right with the hard Brexit thing. Like you I want to see this country burn and fail. I want 3 day weeks and blackouts. Anarchy and blood in the streets. The joy of watching the rest of the world laugh at us. I want the rich to get richer and to sell the remaining few assets we have. To have deals with the Chinese that makes us their bitch. Trousers down for the USA and privatisation of the dreadful NHS. More cuts in services while the Brexit boys fill their pockets. Less regulation so the average man gets what's coming to him. Companies to fail en masse. Private police on the take with intimidation and protection rackets. The young being brought up for the boat and leaving in droves to find work in other places of the world. I'm with you. Bring it on comrade.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excon Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, jonb2 said: I agree, you're right with the hard Brexit thing. Like you I want to see this country burn and fail. I want 3 day weeks and blackouts. Anarchy and blood in the streets. The joy of watching the rest of the world laugh at us. I want the rich to get richer and to sell the remaining few assets we have. To have deals with the Chinese that makes us their bitch. Trousers down for the USA and privatisation of the dreadful NHS. More cuts in services while the Brexit boys fill their pockets. Less regulation so the average man gets what's coming to him. Companies to fail en masse. Private police on the take with intimidation and protection rackets. The young being brought up for the boat and leaving in droves to find work in other places of the world. I'm with you. Bring it on comrade.? Some nice mental onanism there, were you part of project fear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, excon said: Some nice mental onanism there, were you part of project fear? Surely we want the same thing? - bloody lefties like you are letting the side down. BTW, you can't have mental onanism. I've tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: If I was an MP, I would be a Remainer if staying in the EU offered a better path forward for the UK and a Brexiteer if leaving did. As no one has been able to present a credible vision for Brexit that offers a better future for the UK than Remaining, I would vote for revoking A50 and holding a General Election 6 months later at which the parties could present their vision for the future - with or without Brexit. I would have no interest in prolonging my career as an MP, as wouldn't enjoy the job (or living on an MP's salary), but would have no problem saying to the people that the referendum was flawed, the promised Brexit cannot be delivered, there is a stable majority for Remaining over any specific Brexit and revoking A50. Define Better Future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 hour ago, excon said: Leave won with the greatest democratic mandate in UK electoral history and if Remain had won by one single vote that would have been the end of the matter for all time. If you really think that you are not living in the real world. If 16 million people had voted for Brexit and lost, it would have been the perfect platform for Farage to so exactly what he's doing now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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