Bruce Banner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 The way I see it is simple, I don't do detail. There are distinct advantages to EU membership but if we are forced, by our government, to throw that away we will be better off being a free agent and making the best deals with whomever wants to deal with us. Remaining in the EU is safe and easy. Leaving the EU without any pre-negotiated deals is an unknown but potentially profitable option. May's deal, Brexit in name only, is a nonsense, giving us the worst of both worlds. One big danger of leaving is that we would lose the protection of EU law and hand more power to our shambolic and authoritarian government Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: It is when all the exciting proposals can not be paid for. You're very confused. Govt spending isn't paid for out of taxation. Sovereign govts are never resource constrained; theoretically, they can borrow without limit at zero cost. Successive UK govts have already borrowed £1.2 trillion in excess of tax receipts since 2008 (so-called 'austerity') and there's no indication from the current one that this trend is about to be reversed. The only external risk the UK faces is a run on sterling, but a run on sterling is what we're going to have anyway unless the private sector is deleveraged in an orderly fashion and put back on a sustainable debt trajectory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confounded Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 29 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: The way I see it is simple, I don't do detail. There are distinct advantages to EU membership but if we are forced, by our government, to throw that away we will be better off being a free agent and making the best deals with whomever wants to deal with us. Remaining in the EU is safe and easy. Leaving the EU without any pre-negotiated deals is an unknown but potentially profitable option. May's deal, Brexit in name only, is a nonsense, giving us the worst of both worlds. One big danger of leaving is that we would lose the protection of EU law and hand more power to our shambolic and authoritarian government Spot on. Happy to stay, happy to leave but do not want middle ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Confounded said: This is why I am supporting no deal as it is the best and most democratic direction. I will be disappointed if the EU force through May’s deal when parliament and the people do not want it. What is EU forcing? You are deluded beyond any reasonable doubt. Brexit is lose - lose options for both sides. But EU need clarity ASAP what UK wants from Brexit. It should be all done and clarified in October last year, but two weeks before A50 end, and nobody knows what is going to happen. And you are still blaming the EU, for what exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Peter Hun said: Hilarious. Are you a Marxist? No. I wouldn't even consider myself to be a socialist, though I don't really mind if others use the description. My Leftish credentials are more Green than Red: Rachel Carson, Jane Jacobs, Limits to Growth, Peak Oil etc. 'The Deep Left'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: The way I see it is simple, I don't do detail. There are distinct advantages to EU membership but if we are forced, by our government, to throw that away we will be better off being a free agent and making the best deals with whomever wants to deal with us. Remaining in the EU is safe and easy. Leaving the EU without any pre-negotiated deals is an unknown but potentially profitable option. May's deal, Brexit in name only, is a nonsense, giving us the worst of both worlds. One big danger of leaving is that we would lose the protection of EU law and hand more power to our shambolic and authoritarian government The UK is one of the most liberal and progressive law making countries in the world. One of the first to bring in women voting, gay marriage, transgender rights. The UK pretty much wrote the ECHR bill of rights and were the First Nation to sign it. We did that outside of the EU. There is no earthly reason why the UK cannot continue to be a champion in law and rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: The UK is one of the most liberal and progressive law making countries in the world. One of the first to bring in women voting, gay marriage, transgender rights. The UK pretty much wrote the ECHR bill of rights and were the First Nation to sign it. We did that outside of the EU. There is no earthly reason why the UK cannot continue to be a champion in law and rights. Liberal and progressive are the last words I'd use to describe Theresa May! May = Snoopers Charter (and the rest) = Authoritarian = Next step, police state. They (the UK) are neither liberal nor progressive and have not been since 1997 when Blair came to power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 16 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: There is no earthly reason why the UK cannot continue to be a champion in law and rights. Conservatives.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: The UK is one of the most liberal and progressive law making countries in the world. One of the first to bring in women voting, gay marriage, transgender rights. The UK pretty much wrote the ECHR bill of rights and were the First Nation to sign it. We did that outside of the EU. There is no earthly reason why the UK cannot continue to be a champion in law and rights. Did you watch the champions live in parlament? The last 3 days was really records breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Liberal and progressive are the last words I'd use to describe Theresa May! May = Snoopers Charter (and the rest) = Authoritarian = Next step, police state. They (the UK) are neither liberal nor progressive and have not been since 1997 when Blair came to power. Tony Blair introduced the National Minimum Wage and helped restore peace with the GFA. Loads of other progressive stuff with maternity rights. Again UK leading the way David Cameron brought in gay marriage. May is awful - don’t vote for her - Simples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, rollover said: Did you watch the champions live in parlament? The last 3 days was really records breaking. Fascinating stuff. Democracy in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Tony Blair introduced the National Minimum Wage and helped restore peace with the GFA. Loads of other progressive stuff with maternity rights. Again UK leading the way David Cameron brought in gay marriage. May is awful - don’t vote for her - Simples. Blair instigated the surveillance society. He even tried to bring in a system to reduce crime by identifying those likely to offend and intervene before they did, plus assaults on Habeus Corpus, all under the guise of "keeping us safe". Cameron not only failed to reverse the harm done by NuLabour but carried on along similar lines including further inflating Labour's housing bubble. The UK has become an embarrassing joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 11 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said: Still can't answer the Irish question then as a remainer or a leaver? Back to your question, this appeals to me... From your link... … but this doesn't and these conditions exist in the UK already... … so, and simplistically, I would vote for a party which pledges to improve QoL. I voted Labour last time but will see what the Independent group come up with... Yes it’s rather odd this intransigent not answering questions thing isn’t it - I wonder what’s going on ? Interesting article though, if it’s a genuine aspiration for the ERG it helps build up a picture of where they are trying to force us. ’If’ that big little word ! It’s been a divisive nationalism first and then flapping around trying to find a viable model - Id imagine a authoritarian/unfettered capitalist model would tick a lot of boxes for these guys provided they could hollow out any socialist pretentions. So then is Singapore your vision for Britain ? As the laksa and rich mingling with poor are unlikely to take off in the UK presumably it’s the good state schools, military service and authoritarian government ? Or perhaps more the social model, the loyalty sacrifice and inequality ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Tony Blair introduced the National Minimum Wage and helped restore peace with the GFA. Loads of other progressive stuff with maternity rights. Again UK leading the way David Cameron brought in gay marriage. May is awful - don’t vote for her - Simples. Labour == Iraq war, million dead, gave birth to ISIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Fascinating stuff. Democracy in action. Absolutely unforgettable moments. Quote Democracy? It's all gone Humpty Dumpty The entire political class have taken leave of their senses. Both during the referendum campaign and since the result was announced, their behaviour has bordered on the clinically insane. Of course, you should never underestimate their uncanny ability to make everything about them. But the unedifying orgy of self-indulgence we have seen over the past week has plumbed new depths of cynicism and opportunism . . . Daily Mail Edited March 15, 2019 by rollover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Bruce Banner said: Blair instigated the surveillance society. He even tried to bring in a system to reduce crime by identifying those likely to offend and intervene before they did, plus assaults on Habeus Corpus, all under the guise of "keeping us safe". Cameron not only failed to reverse the harm done by NuLabour but carried on along similar lines including further inflating Labour's housing bubble. The UK has become an embarrassing joke. You are deeply critical but offer no solutions. Maybe you should stand as an MP and join the Independent Group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itssimple Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election Select national poll results. Labour not looking very good. It's their own doing, A Nick Clegg moment, voters hate been lied to. Also another drop down menu shows that when there is a choice between may, corb, or neither. Neither is the clear winner. This for the time being at least, indicates to me that the public have lost a vast amount of trust in politicians. Next elections will be electric, my bet is labour is going to get hit massively. Just need corb to fall on the beach now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: You are deeply critical but offer no solutions. Maybe you should stand as an MP and join the Independent Group. The first stage of solving a problem is to recognise the problem - "you offer no solutions" or "well what are you going to do about it?" just help reduce the chance of actually getting solutions. The first step is getting enough people to recognise there's an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Just now, Riedquat said: The first stage of solving a problem is to recognise the problem - "you offer no solutions" or "well what are you going to do about it?" just help reduce the chance of actually getting solutions. The first step is getting enough people to recognise there's an issue. No, sorry, that’s ******. There’s constructive critism then there’s being destructive. Even better there’s alternative solutions offered. It’s easy to shoot things down; far harder to stick your neck out and offer solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Itssimple said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election Select national poll results. Labour not looking very good. It's their own doing, A Nick Clegg moment, voters hate been lied to. Also another drop down menu shows that when there is a choice between may, corb, or neither. Neither is the clear winner. This for the time being at least, indicates to me that the public have lost a vast amount of trust in politicians. Next elections will be electric, my bet is labour is going to get hit massively. Just need corb to fall on the beach now. The next election could go any way. My guess is that turnout will be so low and dislike so evenly spread either could pick up a win. If I had to put money on it right now though I'd probably go Conservative, as hopeless as they are Corbyn is even more unelectable. Someone at work suggested yesterday that the worst thing you could do to Corbyn was put him in to No. 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: No, sorry, that’s ******. There’s constructive critism then there’s being destructive. Even better there’s alternative solutions offered. It’s easy to shoot things down; far harder to stick your neck out and offer solutions. No, sorry, you're finding excuses for brushing issues under the carpet there. Of course it's better to offer solutions but the lack of a solution does not mean that there isn't a problem and you'll get nothing done at all until we get enough people to recognise the problem. FInding excuses to ignore people pointing out the problems is as bad as causing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote Brexit has become a Monty Pythonesque joke The Monty Pythonesque nature of Brexit was summed up this week when arch Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg tweeted in Latin. “Dies irae, dies illa.” The quote means, “day of wrath and doom impending”: an apt thought, although Mr Rees-Mogg was referring to the potential loss of his dream, not the doom into which the British economy is heading, nor the wrath which will be felt if voters start to lose their jobs. Having ensured that UK prime minister Theresa May framed a hard Brexit, Mr Rees-Mogg’s equivalent of the People’s Front of Judea is now quibbling while Rome burns. .......... FT Very good article if you can read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: No, sorry, that’s ******. There’s constructive critism then there’s being destructive. Even better there’s alternative solutions offered. It’s easy to shoot things down; far harder to stick your neck out and offer solutions. Actually, I have offered solutions, many times, on this thread alone. I won't keep repeating myself but the problem lies with our political system which is infested with self serving career politicians. One possible solution can be summed up in two words "Direct Democracy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Actually, I have offered solutions, many times, on this thread alone. I won't keep repeating myself but the problem lies with our political system which is infested with self serving career politicians. One possible solution can be summed up in two words "Direct Democracy". Well have you not had a dose of Direct Democracy with the referendum? That's the end of that. There will be no more direct democracy, that is one thing we can be sure of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, kzb said: Well have you not had a dose of Direct Democracy with the referendum? That's the end of that. There will be no more direct democracy, that is one thing we can be sure of. "A dose of direct democracy" hopelessly implemented and mismanaged by two successive incompetent governments. The first, Cameron, called the referendum, without thinking through the wording, as a tool to get elected. The second, the authoritarian May, an object lesson in pigheadedness and how to browbeat Parliament into submission. Direct democracy is a good thing, ask the Swiss, but it must be done properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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