thecrashingisles Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 30 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Although I have some sympathy for this as a strategy - agree an FTA then leave - this should have been the process from the start of it all. The trouble is now, proposing this now, is like a cup of cold sick. It is highly toxic to brexiteers as it will be seen as remainers wanting us to stay in the EU forever. So I do think now, that we need to rip off the plaster. We will conclude an FTA far quicker when we are out. Would you be happy if ripping off the plaster leads to the break up of the UK and then each country rejoining the EU without opt outs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wish I could afford one Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Would you be happy if ripping off the plaster leads to the break up of the UK and then each country rejoining the EU without opt outs? What are you worried about? We've been told we'll be better off in 50 years or so... You need to take one for the team... That said if we can't get some better leadership than we have now I expect even in 50 years the UK will be much much worse than it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 31 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Would you be happy if ripping off the plaster leads to the break up of the UK and then each country rejoining the EU without opt outs? Yes, very happy. That’s a choice for constituents in each country of the UK. I place the right to self determination very high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 59 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Although I have some sympathy for this as a strategy - agree an FTA then leave - this should have been the process from the start of it all. The trouble is now, proposing this now, is like a cup of cold sick. It is highly toxic to brexiteers as it will be seen as remainers wanting us to stay in the EU forever. So I do think now, that we need to rip off the plaster. We will conclude an FTA far quicker when we are out. Rather, its gravy generously applied to a cup of cold brexsick. Its the ERG that needs ripping off - they're way past their bin date. Yes there'll be a SM tantrum and the Tories would have to face their demons but then it might be possible to start building some sort of consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Yes, very happy. That’s a choice for constituents in each country of the UK. I place the right to self determination very high. Its not a black and white zero sum game. As I understand it you're a Trump/Fox admirer - it would be more accurate to say you are against cooperation and collaboration. In which case yes the rest of the UK and EU can happily feck off (from England lol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 52 minutes ago, pig said: Its not a black and white zero sum game. As I understand it you're a Trump/Fox admirer - it would be more accurate to say you are against cooperation and collaboration. In which case yes the rest of the UK and EU can happily feck off (from England lol). That would be; wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong! I’m pro free choice and anti authoritarianism. viva Catalonia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurCopperCrutch Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Sausage World cancelled due to Brexit. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-47252834 Drip drip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 53 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said: Sausage World cancelled due to Brexit. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-47252834 Drip drip... That reminds me of the Yes Minister episode where it was claimed (wrongly) that the EU wanted to rename the British Sausage the "Offal Tube". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Quote Second Tory minister slams 'party within a party' amid claims Jacob Rees-Mogg's ERG should defect to Nigel Farage's new Brexit party Defence Minister Tobias Ellwood described the European Research Group's actions as 'provocative', accusing them of operating as a 'party within a party'. His intervention on Newsnight came after claims the group led by Jacob Rees-Mogg are 'traitors' to the Conservatives who should join Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. Business Minister Richard Harrington - a Remain supporter who has vowed to resign if Theresa May backs a no deal Brexit - said members of the European Research Group are 'not Conservatives'. He said the champagne party hosted by Mr Rees-Mogg on the night Mrs May lost the meaningful vote was 'treachery'. Daily Mail The Tory criticism for Brexit mess is hitting home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 12 hours ago, kzb said: Got to say that was a good post. How Grayling is in charge of anything beggars belief. However, and I am not 100% sure of the facts on this, but we were assured in parliament yesterday that no money was actually paid out. The £13.8 million was never paid. This is what we are told. But £800k was spent on a half baked due diligence exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 14/02/2019 at 02:07, Sheeple Splinter said: I can see why you would think that, however NINO registration data is far more robust, 70% of NINO's issued to EU27 countries. Didn't I explain why NINOs are not a good measure of anything and give you a link to why the ONS agree with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 14/02/2019 at 13:22, crouch said: Well it's all there! Remain was not a status quo option? I'll have to mull that one over because I thought that the two alternatives on the ballot paper were stay or leave. "Stay" must be some metaphysical concept I've not grasped. I thought it meant stay in the EU and that's where we already were. Perhaps we're really somewhere else and don't know it. The last para is a doozie. There you have it; the full condescending display: they were too dumb to know what they were voting for! The "quality" of their thinking is not up to the job. They were just too stupid! QED I think. So you seriously thought Remaining in the EU meant the world stopped evolving at that point? If you actually read what I said, it was that it was not possible for any Leave voter to know what they were voting for because it how we left was undefined. E.g. how many Leave voters realised they were voting for paying the EU £39 to leave. How many actually knew they were voting for May's BRINO, or a crash out exit. Your posts demonstrate a lazy arrogance that is typical of the "we won get over it leavers", that seem to now make up the majority of the Leave supporters still posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Exiled Canadian said: That reminds me of the Yes Minister episode where it was claimed (wrongly) that the EU wanted to rename the British Sausage the "Offal Tube". Things are getting serious, first sausages and now: Porsche Warns U.K. Buyers of Possible 10% Hard Brexit Price Hike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 09/02/2019 at 17:18, Sheeple Splinter said: Yes but there was a massive change in preferences 12 months later... … 85% for Brexit parties GE2017 On 10/02/2019 at 00:49, Confusion of VIs said: Why do you think that is relevant? I voted in 2017, for a "Brexit" party but my vote had nothing to do with Brexit. In any case as the promised "have cake and eat it" Brexit doesn't seem to have been delivered are those voters who actually voted for Brexit not entitled to change their minds On 13/02/2019 at 22:25, Sheeple Splinter said: Are you unhappy with UK democracy? I presume, besides posting here, you have joined the PV movement, possibly the LD's, signed petitions, lobbied your MP, watched the speeches, debates, amendments etc. and still remain dissatisfied? On 13/02/2019 at 23:37, Confusion of VIs said: You have not being paying attention? All things considered, I think May's deal is currently the least worst option and expect it to go through. So no I don't support a second referendum, although I would if the was the only way of avoiding a crash out aka "managed no deal" (by complete F***wits) On 14/02/2019 at 02:05, Confusion of VIs said: I have shared my support for May's deal several times. The thing I like least about it is how she is trying to use procedure to railroad Parliament into supporting it, especially when there probably is a majority in Parliament for a customs union Brexit that, if adopted, would shortcut the inevitable 2-3 years of can kicking it's going to take us to go round the houses before we realise it's that or no deal. Sadly it seems party still comes before country. Agreed, and that reinforces my point that UK democracy has provided opportunities for voters and their representative MP's to shape how the UK leaves. The fact that remain voters did not get behind the LD's, even if it was just to spin the early polling, was an epic fail. Don't you think the majority of MP's want to remain? I miss the Howler's incisive commentary. Sadly, it's frequently ego before party, before party before country. The EU elite should park the UK and Switzerland in the tbc ante-room and sort out their existential crises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 The Bolkestein Directive...Hmmm.... https://corporateeurope.org/power-lobbies/2019/02/veto-power-please-lobbyists-corporations-behind-commission-power-grab-over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 13 hours ago, kzb said: Can't be right if pharmaceuticals alone, reportedly covered by this, amount to 18% of UK -> USA exports. Well that's wrong as well, UK exports to the USA are 112billion per year. It seems our government is attempting to ******** us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkG Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: If you actually read what I said, it was that it was not possible for any Leave voter to know what they were voting for because it how we left was undefined. E.g. how many Leave voters realised they were voting for paying the EU £39 to leave. How many actually knew they were voting for May's BRINO, or a crash out exit. Let me translate: 'Leave voters are stoopid. STOOPID, STOOPID, STOOPID!' They voted to leave. They wanted to leave. They still want to leave. And the leave voters I know are looking forward to a no-deal Brexit, because they wanted to... leave. Not be tied to the EU through some backdoor agreement. And you're highly unlikely to get another vote, because your beloved EU has no reason to let you. They want you gone, too, because the whole house of cards is falling down and not having Britons in the EU parliament will make their life easier. Edited February 16, 2019 by MarkG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunketh Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: But £800k was spent on a half baked due diligence exercise. How the **** did that cost 800k?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MarkG said: Let me translate: 'Leave voters are stoopid. STOOPID, STOOPID, STOOPID!' They voted to leave. They wanted to leave. They still want to leave. And the leave voters I know are looking forward to a no-deal Brexit, because they wanted to... leave. Not be tied to the EU through some backdoor agreement. And you're highly unlikely to get another vote, because your beloved EU has no reason to let you. They want you gone, too, because the whole house of cards is falling down and not having Britons in the EU parliament will make their life easier. I hadn’t thought about that but you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 13 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: That would be; wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong! I’m pro free choice and anti authoritarianism. viva Catalonia! Yet you are anti second referendum, removing democratic choice from people in a truly authoritarian fashion. Brexiters know no shame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: So you seriously thought Remaining in the EU meant the world stopped evolving at that point? If you actually read what I said, it was that it was not possible for any Leave voter to know what they were voting for because it how we left was undefined. E.g. how many Leave voters realised they were voting for paying the EU £39 to leave. How many actually knew they were voting for May's BRINO, or a crash out exit. Your posts demonstrate a lazy arrogance that is typical of the "we won get over it leavers", that seem to now make up the majority of the Leave supporters still posting. This is amazing. So we need to know that the £39bn was payable in 2016 when it was only agreed the year after? Brilliant. So Leave not only had to give chapter and verse but also be clairvoyant and see into the future? If we had politicians that had that power we wouldn't need the EU or, for that matter, anybody else! And we need to know all these details when we hadn't yet sat down with the EU and started negotiations? Even better. By saying that "it was not possible for any Leave voter to know what they were voting for because it how we left was undefined" you really are stating the bleedin' obvious. So what? 17.4 million people thought it was sufficiently clear to put an X in the Leave box. Sour grapes; they were too thick to know what they were voting for. It's pretty clear where the arrogance is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MarkG said: Let me translate: 'Leave voters are stoopid. STOOPID, STOOPID, STOOPID!' They voted to leave. They wanted to leave. They still want to leave. And the leave voters I know are looking forward to a no-deal Brexit, because they wanted to... leave. Not be tied to the EU through some backdoor agreement. And you're highly unlikely to get another vote, because your beloved EU has no reason to let you. They want you gone, too, because the whole house of cards is falling down and not having Britons in the EU parliament will make their life easier. There's another subtle point about this that follows on from that. For many years I've bought into the "the Brits are the mavericks in the EU and we need to stay in and press for change" idea. I'm not nearly so convinced of that now. The EU has serious problems and these are surfacing quite rapidly now. If you look at the way things are shaping up in Italy and EE they seem to want far more radical change than we do (as a member) and I'm coming round to the view that if we stayed we'd be against some of what's going on and would drag the whole thing back and actually prevent change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byron78 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Peter Hun said: Well that's wrong as well, UK exports to the USA are 112billion per year. It seems our government is attempting to ******** us. Source? I've only ever seen UK exports to the US given as around 50 billion. Official 2015 stats give it as 45 billion. Handy wiki here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_United_Kingdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Here’s more sad news... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, yelims said: Yet you are anti second referendum, removing democratic choice from people in a truly authoritarian fashion. Brexiters know no shame No I’m not at all!! I advocate the time frame precedent in the GFA, so an in/out referendum in June 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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